The Leadership Edition- Calling Up, Calling Out

Length: 31:27

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

doula, tagged, person, watching, referral, thread, conversation, space, original poster, happen, post, birth, black women, negative, calling, work, people, talk, business, accountable

SPEAKERS

Ravae Sinclair, Denise Bolds

Denise Bolds

Record. Hi, welcome. I'm Denise Bolds owner and trainer of Black Women Do VBAC, an advanced doula training for doulas and we have a great training coming up in March. We will be training on how to be a VBAC and surgical birth doula, and that is eight contact hours you will be earning, there is a quiz. There's a competency level you have to pass. It is eight hours of great education and great sharing with doulas and birth workers. Please join in, go over to black women do vbac.com and check on our availability for a seat. I hope to see you in March. Take care.

Ravae Sinclair

Hi, everybody. I'm Ravae Sinclair.

Denise Bolds

Hey, I'm Denise Bolds.

Ravae Sinclair

And we're here to help you Doula That! Welcome. So, welcome to the Leadership Edition. Okay, and so. So, as we were, I know, as we were getting ready for this episode, one of the things we wanted to do was to review some things that we see happening on social media. And of course, as I go into the group, where we had like a lot of discussion, the posts appears to be gone, oh, oh, she deleted the post, oh, We all hate that, you know, the dirty deleting, because it doesn't help us to, like, in this situation, we want to talk about it talk about what happened more so and the lessons that can come from it. And we can't direct you back to the original post. So you don't have to take my word for what happened, we want you to see for yourself. I do have a few screenshots. So maybe we can add those into the show notes. But I don't have the original like the initial posts, like the language or the initial posts. I do have instead I have the initial commentar. I didn't even bother to go back and screenshot, you know, kind of preserve all the commentary, because it actually for me was pretty negative. And I didn't, you know, and I only screenshot it so I could share it with you. So we can talk about it. So at any rate, I feel like I only have part of the story, at least of the thread. And so we wanted to direct you all back to the link but we're not going to be able to I don't think. So, let's say this it there's a post there was a post in a Facebook group called doulas of color. And in that group on February 6, in the middle of the day, around one o'clock, a post was created, requesting referrals like or people from central New Jersey, who could support a, I would say, a high profile or celebrity burning person. So this person was looking for referrals on behalf of another person. Or it's already convoluted. Right. And so people doulas were doing what they normally do they if they note knew someone in central New Jersey, they were tagging them in the thread. And there was a doula who tagged a another doula and agency owner in the thread. And the original poster said to the very innocent person who was tagging bringing in one of her colleagues, someone she works with and respects very much who works in central New Jersey. The original poster said to that tagger about the person who was tagged, she said, I'm sorry, but blee blee blee doesn't respect how I show up in the workspace, I don't think she'll want to hear from me no matter how high profile the client is. So you and I were actually on the telephone talking in the middle of the day, just minding our own business. I was gonna say some bills in front of it, but not in our own business. And you got you got tagged into this. And then we went to see it in real time. We were why real time in the middle of the day. Ah, and it was kind of crazy to see that to see that comment. This innocent doula was just tagging someone who she knew in central New Jersey and her response to her. Well, let me say this, the response that the original poster was giving to all the people who were tagging people to say, Thanks, I'll DM you. I'll DM you, I'll DM you, I'll DM you, instead of saying, Hey, thanks, I'll DM you, and then privately say hey, yeah, I don't think this person is going to respect how I show up in the birth space. So to join Emily privately, she did it publicly. And so we're all reading this and it's like, Nope, I'm sorry, but so and so doesn't respect how I show up in the birth space. I don't think she'll want to hear from me no matter how high profile the client is. So the person who was pulled in and tagged and now is being spoken about in a negative way. blindsided was living her good life, and got tagged innocently by someone who wanted To make sure she had a referral or recommendation opportunity. She comes in to this comment and replies and says, it most certainly is not an issue of respect but authenticity. My doulas work professionally and discreetly the client would be served well. And referral is simply that nothing personal. And then the original poster comes back in this public thread. It says, No, I'm sorry, but it is most certainly personal. And if I can keep it real, I do so well. Despite your thoughts of me. This entire industry is based on personal connections. We serve families with genuine support. When we make real connections, that's exactly how I show up. It's what I teach and how I train. I clearly encourage doulas to work with two duelists to work families. That was her mistake. Mistake number two work families that are a good fit and don't thirsty for the Colleen, do you need a drink? As you stated your doulas in quotes, and those who know me know how I feel about agencies claiming doulas as my doulas as they make money off of them, we have a term for that in the streets.

Denise Bolds

He just took a door like that, yeah, we

Ravae Sinclair

have, we probably would offer an awesome service. I'm sure they were professional and would show up as such. However, I'm okay with deferring this opportunity to someone who at least regards my authenticity. For me, I don't think a person is authentic. If I don't think a person is authentic, I don't want their connection in any way. I don't fool with fake folks period, just because an opportunity will bring a coin for my agency or quote unquote, my doulas, I will pass that's just me. If we don't vibe on that level, and I'm not authentic, then surely we won't vibe on making referrals. either. You don't think I'm genuine or real and how I show up in the birth space. But you'll take a referral from me. Now, how fake is that? Miss me with that one. Take one take this response with a grain of salt. But I was being real when I saw it. Saw It was you that was tagged? You don't fool with me any other time you drag me on Facebook, then you are willing to accept the high profile referral from me. That's a real pimp move right there. But are not authentic with the laughing emoji. Y'all, just like it was a lot for me to read that it was just a lot of energy in the middle of the day, all this about a referral, right? Which my, my initial thought was, okay, just keep it moving. Just pass it by somebody tag this person, you don't want to refer to this person, you can say why privately, or you can just say nothing and just not do the work, right? Just kind of keep it moving. But it was just a lot of words. And that wasn't even the end of the thread, y'all, which is why we want to do I didn't keep screenshotting because I don't have time for all of that. But it definitely went back and forth back and forth between the two of them with these very long, you know, "trying to make their point" threads and it was sad to see, okay, so what we're seeing are two leaders in the in the birth worker community-two Black leaders- going back and forth on a social media platform being very negative and nasty, like nice, nasty to one another. And I think it threw me off to see it in the middle of the day, when we're all working and just kind of living our lives. And it was just so sad because it was a really positive thing. You got a high profile person pregnant, looking for birth support, how that's amazing. That's what we want, right? It's the only thing we want. And somehow I got twisted into something like negative and sinister and violent. It was violent to watch. Because again, it was a multiple thread situation. It was terrible to watch. And I'm just a member of the doulas of color group. Right. I didn't wake up that morning wanting to see this kind of exchange. And so yeah, I just wanted to lay it out kind of what we wanted to talk about because I think it spins into our conversation around leadership, it spins into a common conversation about how we work with one another, and professionalism and the impact of this kind of conversation because we were just witnesses. We weren't participants, but the impact of this kind of exchange and interaction on the people who watched it. So I don't know. What do you think, Denise?

Denise Bolds

Well, you know, first of all, when you make a post on social media, social media has a role and function to get information out there to people and to generate something, some type of activity, whether it's wealth building, hiring. In an event that you need to know about in your community, social media does have its role and function. And when you misuse it by putting up a post. And then when someone responds to a tag, you don't like that person. Now you're taking that very generalized post, and your focus now on directing some passive aggression, because you don't like this person, to the masses to everyone, instead of having this one on one conversation, you've defeated the purpose of what social media is supposed to be doing.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, I mean, it's a spread into the negativity. In the last episode, we talked about that, like, don't just come to me, when you can just come to me, and we can have this conversation if, if it's necessary. This was a conversation that didn't feel like it needed to happen, definitely in the way in the space. And definitely at that moment, you were asking about a referral, get the referral. Okay, the task, right?

Denise Bolds

e in front of over, you know,: 1000

Ravae Sinclair

e it happen this way. Because: 4900

Denise Bolds

It was Yeah.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah. So I feel like you know, I would like for like when we bring forth examples, in our podcast, I think it's so helpful to see like, what things are going really well. And then also to point out things like, Can we not do this? So I'm just going to ask, you know, because we have a platform, we have a space, just going to ask us to elevate. And I'm just going to ask us to consider elevating, elevating this conversation because I was just a witness to it. And it was really a negative. It was a contrary experience

Denise Bolds

It was very unpleasant.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah. And we didn't need it. None of us needed it. Right. Like we could have all lived our whole lives without it.

Denise Bolds

No, we didn't need that. We didn't need that at all. And as as Black women, um, you know, there's so much tearing down, there's so much. There's just so much of drama happening. And it's not helping Black maternal health disparities. It's not helping Black birth. And when you use social media, there's a chance that a post you put up somebody who you don't want or don't like or whatever, it's going to respond, there's a chance that's going to happen, either you could delete the tag the post, or you can, you can hide it. But you don't have to put all of those other things up there. We didn't need To see all of what took place here on that thread, and it was disheartening, especially for these younger doulas to see that.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, can you imagine? So we know both of the people, right? Imagine how disorienting or negative it would be if we didn't know either one of these people, like what is this mess? What is going on here?

Denise Bolds

But and not to mention the person who tagged the person saying, Oh, she's in central New Jersey, she might be able to help, thinking she was doing something benevolent, and kind, only to now thrust this person who got tagged into this person's arena to receive all of this passive aggression and hostility.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, you You did share with me that that young doula who originally tagged the per the business owner felt really bad

Denise Bolds

she had no idea what she was walking into when she tagged her mentor, and the person who she thought fit the query of the post. Oh, this is a this is a great doula. You know, she's in Central Jersey. I know her she's my mentor, she provides great service. Let me let me tag her. And she tagged her and the shit hit the fan when she did that. And I can only imagine how that young doula must have felt that, you know, she inadvertently walked through a mentee or mentor into something hostile.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, on negative experience. Yeah. Yeah, that was cool. Yeah, yeah. I think it reverb to had some impact that that conversation on a lot of people. And I wonder, I don't know, if the post was deleted by admin who finally got around to seen it. I didn't know that by the end of the day that the original poster turned off the comments.

Denise Bolds

She did. She couldn't take the heat in the kitchen girl. So she turned off the comments.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, it was unnecessary, because yeah, I imagine people would have given her feedback like, Hey, girl, take this somewhere else.

Denise Bolds

Exactly. Don't start something that won't be nothing. That's all there is to it, you don't have to do something like that. You don't have to do something like that. This was simply a business query. That's all I'm putting it out there. I don't know who's gonna respond. I don't know who's going to be tagged. But you know, if somebody is tagged, that I don't really care for, like I said, there are options for you to net to navigate that better, especially when the original poster is now employed in this person's state, and a very high profile position. And you want respectability and you want to be treated a certain way after showing your ass the way you did? I don't know.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, But here's what I love, you know. So we're not having this conversation with your otter when we had it that day. Because it was a lot of hooting and hollering when we were watching this, because a lot of this was ego between both people. I really watch people leave with ego. And we all know that that's dangerous as it's like not a place for productivity for people. It's always really a great example of what can happen when when people don't keep their ego in check. So there was a lot of ego leading and kind of like coming for you coming for you. And they both could have de escalated it. And so that's the responsibility and role that we have as leaders is to manage ourselves. And sometimes we Hey, weren't you we're human, we're not perfect. And so we let it go. And it can get really bad. What I think when we were talking, you know, I'm of the Malcolm X philosophy that some chickens came home to roost. On this one. I got here like, what are you about? to do?

Denise Bolds

Do tell us about the chickens, Ravae.

I'm just saying, people people bother these people put out some funky ass energy over the last few years. I have seen it low key high key public, private, both, both of them, you know?

Denise Bolds

I do.

Ravae Sinclair

uth telling. I'm in line with: 2024

Denise Bolds

Right.

Ravae Sinclair

You see how it's how it feels for this heated energy to come your way and for you to be missed and to be mistreated. So the original poster is a person who is a backstabber, she's not loyal to anyone.

Denise Bolds

Not loyal.

Ravae Sinclair

As long as you sit around and you think that like, Oh, she did it to me. It's just a matter of time. Yeah. But see, we see the evidence. We see evidence and the Lord said vindication is mine, just keep watching. She's gonna ruin her own opportunities. She's gonna take her own house down.

Denise Bolds

right.

Ravae Sinclair

You don't have to say or do anything. And so for me watching it was really interesting on a couple of levels, because I thought how sad how sad to use the platform this way. How sad your energy this way, or how sad to like make people feel like oh, I just walked in on a private conversation. And I think we should take more responsibility as leaders. This is the whole reason why I'm bringing this up, is we do owe each other the culture, the birth worker space. And when you have years in the space, and you have people follow you and trust you and know you and like you, it's-you owe yourself, you owe your brand, the responsibility to like to respond accordingly, especially in public. We need that it's funny that the word authenticity came up in that thread. Because it's like, yeah, you need to be authentic, you need to show up the same way in this space, and that space and that space in that space, because that's what an authenticity but also integrity. That's how it's defined

Denise Bolds

Yeah, there's a time and place to snatch edges, quote, unquote, there's a time and place for you to snatch somebody's edges. And that was not the time or the place.

Ravae Sinclair

who can come up into a group: 5000

Denise Bolds

It was not.

Ravae Sinclair

it was not a good look. So I think they're, you know, my commentary is a well, some of this is their own energy coming back at them. But it's also like a, an indicator that we have, we have lost our way in this birth space a little bit, because we haven't held one another accountable for our actions. And I don't have necessarily an answer, but I do feel like we should be calling people in and calling people up in terms of how we treat one another. And how we do business and how we navigate this stressful terrain of trying to you know, keep moms and babies alive and thriving in the birth space. I don't know, let's do better.

Denise Bolds

It's it's a tough slope. Um, but yes, to do better is fine. But I do feel that Black people as a whole have always been brought up. Don't put your business out in the street. Let's keep our stuff in house. What's its happens in here stays in here. And you can't do that. You simply cannot do that. If something is dysfunctional. If someone is wilding out, it's time to call them out and say, Let's shut this down. Because it's going to go on to another person, and it's going to be even more pronounced than it was this time.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, it's almost like we've created a monster right?

Denise Bolds

The undisciplined child run amuck.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, when you didn't get called out on this, and you got away with it, and you were still able to do your business and make money. So now you think not your bad behavior just gets bigger and bigger. We talked about this before with the doula who--or the childbirth educator who took folks money $600-700-800

Denise Bolds

Oh,$700 a seat-

Ravae Sinclair

apiece!

Denise Bolds

I saved space on social media said, Hey, have any of you had this happen? Nobody wants to come forward and call this person out. And she's still out here.

Ravae Sinclair

Oh, now she's in my backyard. Now she's in Atlanta,

Denise Bolds

eld accountable for the multi: 1000

Ravae Sinclair

And so when we talk about so this plays into just our role As a doula, like we have to be trustworthy, we need to be accountable, we need to be reliable. And if we're not doing it on the professional side, it's not enough to just do it in your private business. You really got to call it you got to do it on the on the business side in the in the birth world and the professional side. And again, you know, I've said this, it's okay for people to get a second chance. Okay, I'm here for people having second and third chances and changing and growing. Maybe that doula who took those people's money and didn't provide the childbirth ed class, who's now here, you know, teaching with a reputable organization, maybe she's different. Maybe she's grown, and she's changed, she's matured. But what we do know but she hasn't reconciled that riff with these individual buyers, these individual doulas. So these birth workers are in our community, not trusting anyone, or having a hard time trusting one another because of this, you know, very, you know, sore experience that they've had. And

Denise Bolds

it is a Black and white thing, Ravae, because we had it happen almost the same time in a white community. Somebody had my name on here saying that I was going to be part of a retreat. And they use my name to draw in ticket buyers and the white doula community came back to me and said, Are you going to Puerto Rico to nice to be a part of a retreat for doulas and I'm like, What on earth are you talking about? I have no such knowledge of anything of what you're saying. They found out this person was fake. And they shut her ass down quick and in a hurry. They called her out on it. And she could she she couldn't come back. couldn't come back. But see, we as black people who were we were brought up with this premise. Don't put your business out there. What goes on inside stays inside? Don't snitches get stitches, don't say anything. And you know. And it's like, you can't do that. You can't do that. Because you have people who are out here. My some of my own people are out here harming our people that you and I experienced with DONA happen with a black woman who was not elected by the donor members, who's not certified as a childbirth educator. But she's out here training doulas in a very, very low bar way. She's out here claiming that she helped the New York State doulas get their Medicaid certification. And she's got the Senate testimony up on her webpage like she did something this woman is falsifying information on top of falsifying information. When is it going to stop wanting to black people going to come together and say enough? Call her out. Ravae and I are calling this person out. But I don't see anybody else really calling her out? Yeah.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah. And let me be clear, I'm not naming names, because I don't have time to go to court. I got businesses to run. So I'm not here trying to go to court, because that'll be a whole mess. And I'm here for it, though. I'm here for it on some level. But I mean, if I can avoid it, and most people know who we're talking about, you can figure it out. You can find it out. She was

Denise Bolds

she was a black president who wasn't elected into the largest doula organization in the world. You know, she wasn't elected. You know, she backstabbed us because she wanted her face on the on the magazine cover of a white doula organization. You know that.

Ravae Sinclair

Oh.Okay, y'all. Listen, we are happy people. We are happy in our lives. We have--we have moved forward. And some people might be like, Why don't keep bringing it up. Because when you have, when you have a moment like that, when you have an experience that is so seminal, so pivotal. It is a you know, it's something that you keep bringing up, but we have not keep bringing it up because we're sore about it.

Denise Bolds

No, I'm not. Because it's builder.

Ravae Sinclair

First of all, because the Facebook post that I'm talking about, she wrote some bad behavior, and got letting her run amuck. That's just--

Denise Bolds

still- still

Ravae Sinclair

because we have created an environment where you don't have to be accountable for bad behavior. That's right. And so this is going to continue until people start calling people up and out. This is one our version because this is our happens to be our podcast, we get to call up and out. I'm not speaking to that person, because that person is going to be who they are. I'm about you all who witnessed it, too. When you see stuff like that, hold the admin accountable, hey, get on this post, or or even in the thread, say, Hey, wait, wait, wait, what's happening here? Decide what you want this cultural experience to be and contribute to it. Set a standard help us set a standard for how we want to operate with one another. People watched two leaders who were very, very committed, get dismissed with no explanation still to this day. And people are still a part of that organization. You are still promoting that person. People are still attending their classes even though they're not certified in lactation, childbirth ID or anything else except they're a trainer for that organization. That's

Denise Bolds

barely they barely earned that Training, barely made it through- Oh, girl. Don't make me tell her Don't Don't. Don't really don't make me tell the truth on all of that. And at the same time, I realized people are very connected to that person. Because if they feel like they opened up a whole nother world, like birth world to them, and it is what it is, but listen, you watch the snake bite. And that's what I kept saying to you. Why are we surprised because a snake bites-a Scorpio stings. I mean, yeah, but some people might have been like, Oh my God, oh, my God. And we did see some of some we got some commentary from folks. They're like, Oh, my God- the thing is a snake bites. So recognize, you know, what's going on and the nature of the beast, and act accordingly. And at the same time for everybody else, which is what I'm speaking to, is let's elevate let's call up. Let's do better. That's right. Okay.

Ravae Sinclair

We're gonna talk about leadership in the next one, y'all. I want to wrap this up, but you can find us not only on the Facebook page, and as well as the doula that podcast Instagram page, but we are on YouTube.

Denise Bolds

Yay!

Ravae Sinclair

Yes, plenty of y'all are watching us. But you can actually go to YouTube and see us the facial expressions are totally worth it. Oh, it did. Come over to YouTube. All right, everybody. We'll see you in