One Year Look Back: The Abrupt Dismissal from DONA International's Board (recorded on April 11, 2023)

,: 2023

SUMMARY KEYWORDS

people, organization, doula, work, members, dona, happened, year, donor, black, board, black women, leaders, trainer, good, president, benefit, white, birth, international

SPEAKERS

Ravae Sinclair, Denise Bolds

Ravae Sinclair: 00:09

Oh, this year, what this last year has been like, for you for me, and what it has meant, like in our doula career. So it's been a year since you've transitioned out of leadership with DONA International. And of course, that happened abruptly and you know, it had, well, yeah, it happened, you know, without our knowledge or, it wasn't the plan, right, the plan was to see see through till December and implement programs that benefited specifically Black Birth Workers that we know translates to impacting and supporting Black mamas and dads and families and communities. So that was, I know that that was your heart, because I was there at the meetings where the agenda was set to highlight Black within DONA and to take those dollars that have been allocated to lots of other things. At least for last year, your goal was to really allocate and uplift Black birth workers, because we know the domino effect is it impacts the Black maternal health crisis. So tell me, what what are your thoughts about like the transition? What has that been like for you?

Denise Bolds: 01:28

It was painful. It was it was very, very harsh. It was I trusted so much. And I had such big hopes. So personally, it really affected my health. It just really it knocked me down. It knocked me down. There was no, there is no easy way say, oh, you know, just do what no, no, this this was really very, very, very home hitting for me. I had a lot of great hopes and things I wanted to do for the Black and Brown members of DONA. And I know they were looking for that that's why they voted for the both of us because they had such good hopes of the both of us on what we're capable of. And I took the word of my board that we all had these meetings, and we agreed. This is the focus. This has never been the focus ever in the history of this organization. And we know what Black birth workers are going through, let's be the organization to put the focus on Black birth workers and be the example. Well, that didn't happen that that went right out the window, even by some of our own fellow Black Board members,

Ravae Sinclair: 02:38

Right! All of it is so shocking, right? Because you're just reminding me that these many of these votes are these initiatives to uplift black birth workers and fight like financially and resource wise were unanimous. Yes, though, like, of course, you believed in your board, the sitting board and like, they believed in these things, like they said, I believe in these things. And yeah, that was like such a shocker to me too. That was like, it

Denise Bolds: 03:09

was really, really hard. And you know, I it took me a while to come out of that I fell into a little bit of depression, I was quiet, I was withdrawn. My son was concerned about me, it took me a little bit of time to get myself together, especially when I was really trying to also readily implement having a Black postpartum doula trainer because I was a recipient of postpartum doula trainer training from a white trainer. And I knew the impact of how that's so shortcoming. So I really, as a leader, I really wanted them to move forward as quickly as possible. And to put up a blog post partum doula training because we had so much request, so much need, it would have been a win for the organization. And that got shut down just as quickly to when I was, I could not, I still cannot rationalize or begin to conceptualize the whys on so many of these things. So I just have to leave them alone. Because it's out of my mental scope. It's out of my heart scope. It's just not who I am.

Ravae Sinclair: 04:08

Yeah, I mean, I agree with you. Like, to me, the immediate impact was like, wait, what, because we have structured our year around this. And because I had done the leadership role within that organization, I knew what it would take. And so we were crafting our calendars, our family life, around the work that we were all committing to do. And so to have it like abruptly end was fairly disorienting. You know, I was on vacation, planning to come back and wrap up a like our calendaring for the year so that we could communicate with the membership in a way that we had never done before. So that the year can be clear for everyone so that the agenda could be clear and everybody could get on board and rally around the work that you had planned for us. to do last year, so it was quite shocking, you know, like, I literally got home and I was like, Oh, I'm used to having day hopeful days of meetings and no meetings, I would say I didn't, I didn't fall into a depression I fell into first of all, I had lots of engagement from people. So it was, it was interesting to see where people saw the opportunity, and people were very positive and uplifting. I was busy also taking care of a family postpartum. So I think I was I just kind of my life was full, and busy, but less busy. And I felt relieved. Yeah, I actually, I felt relieved. I think the sadness kind of hit me later. It wasn't immediate. But I think in the immediate, I felt relieved. Yeah,

Denise Bolds: 05:52

it was, it was a lot, it was a lot. And but I was prepared to stick out this dysfunction, I knew that it was dysfunctional, but I was prepared to stay in it, and see if I could somehow make an impact for change. So I was prepared to stay in this very dysfunctional relationship with the hopes that things were going to change. And so it was, you know, it was very, very harsh, but now the relief is there. And it's it's very liberating. It was a it was a very deep lesson on on personal, you know, and relationships and how much I contribute, how I contribute, where I contribute to who I contribute to. Yeah, and setting up those boundaries, setting up those boundaries. It was really a big wake up call. Yeah,

Ravae Sinclair: 06:38

I mean, you're right, it was fairly dysfunctional. And so for me, I had been in it for so many years. And it was like, familiar. And so I'm like, it's funny now to look back. And you're like calling me you're like, so wait, what? I don't understand this. And I'm like, Oh, girl, okay.

Denise Bolds: 06:54

Thank God, I had you as my anchor, otherwise, I would have been on somebody's bridge, okay. Because we're really the anchor that held me down because you knew what was coming. And you would often say, Me too nice watch out for this, Denise, over here. And sure enough, here it is. There it was.

Ravae Sinclair: 07:14

You know, what it was through that experience that I realized, why do you? First of all, I realize I am very good at operating in dysfunction. And some of that probably is because I was a public defender, right? Like, you know, I used to operate in a broken system. So you learn the workarounds, but you also learn how to be in the dysfunction. And so I think I learned how to be in that organizations dysfunction. And, you know, my energy was always the work around. So yeah, so I Yeah, you're right. I did a lot of like, okay, so let me tell you about him. Let me tell you about her. You got to have a strategy around this. It was a lot of that, because you're right, it was it was it was dysfunctional.

Denise Bolds: 08:00

It really was and I came in prepared to do the work, not realizing that it wasn't just my board, I had to negate but I also had to negate the management office, the managing company. And that in itself was like, what, but we're paying them? Oh, no, but you got to jump through hoops. You got to, you got to appease them to, because if they start to feel threatened, they can be an adversary. And that's exactly what happened.

Ravae Sinclair: 08:25

Is it is it took me a while to kind of understand, like, maybe what happened, because we still don't know what happened, right? We never what the information that people got, like, formally, that's all we got to so we're still a year later, like, we don't know. But I think you're right on the theory, that it was clear that we had a plan to find maybe a company or a structure that was more honoring of who the organization was, it didn't cost as much money, maybe to partner with an organization or a business that look like us, maybe a woman led black LED brown led kind of organization. And so it's clear that those conversations, were not kept private, just to the board, even though it was a closed meeting. Right. And that probably there was a lot of leveraging and support of the management company saying, hey, these women are threatening, perhaps Perhaps we don't, you know, allegedly let me be the lawyer. Okay. Allegedly, there was probably some suggestion that we were not operating in the best interest of the organization because we were looking for something that was a better fit fiscally, energetically, culturally, that might be a better fit. And if nothing else, I think we just needed to try something different. Because what we had going was dysfunctional, it wasn't working. So anyway, it's, you know, water under the bridge in a lot of ways, but it was yeah, that was a Wild Ride that I was happy to get

Denise Bolds: 10:03

off to get off of. Yeah, all of it, just get me out of here, get me off of this because I wasn't appreciated, I wasn't valued, I wasn't restricted. And the bullying, the bullying outside of the board from the members from certain members was terrible. And these are the people that they never bothered to get rid of, and they should have got rid of these people years ago, they should have never remained as part of the organization with the background of harm that they've committed over the years in this organization, they've been allowed to stay in their white privilege. And it really is going to be part of the detriment. It really is.

Ravae Sinclair: 10:38

Already, it already has been, I think it's interesting to be on the outside, right, because I've been I was on the inside for so long. And navigating the complaints and the feedback and the personalities, there's a lot of personalities involved on a mid level leadership level. And I think you hit the nail on the head when you're like this is organization run by the trainers, right? That this is not like an autonomous body that's thinking about the balance between the members and, and other people who directly financially benefit from this organization existing. Right? Like, there's a lot of toxicity and there's a lot of holding on to the, to the past, like what we've done in the past. The sad part, and I feel like it's like a microcosm of what's happening in America is your past is not so pretty. Your past is not equitable. Your past is not filled with like, honoring Black and Brown people who you take in what was happening naturally in their communities and monetize it and capitalize it. You know, leaning on your history is not really necessarily where you want to go and be. But it's what you know. And so I understand that there's fear in change. And unfortunately, those voices that were fear filled, and wanting to stay where they were, were very loud and were listened to. And those who were like catalysts for change, like you and I were made to be wrong.

Denise Bolds: 12:17

DONA had outgrown so many things, but they kept them because they were familiar. They were safe. They weren't they were manipulative, you know, and they were okay with that. And and they did not want to change, it did not want to grow. They did not want to be the leader that they they've had this moniker for so long. But when it came time to lead by example, and show other doula organizations, how the progress can be made, they didn't want to do that, oh, I really wish these can go back to the way they were when I hear white people say that I cringe because I'm like, oh, yeah, we know exactly what you're talking about where you have the power and my people do not obviously, you know, Yeah,well, you know, I had the distinct displeasure of having some non American based trainers be very blatant about that about like, with me, and disrespectful, you know, I keep all the receipts. So screenshots galore. But it's one of those things where you're like, is this a cultural thing? Or like, but racism and bias translates in all languages. Okay, I got caught what was happening. And it's like, what do you do? Because you are in an international organization, you are a leader for everyone, you know, you're there to be accountable to everyone. It was like a huge challenge. What I want to say, I'm glad I had it. I'm glad that I had a chance to come back because I had completed my presidential years and really offered an opportunity for a change, a map, a blueprint, so to speak. And I you know, you know, I only came back because you were in a position to be president, we were positioned with several other Black and Brown women on the board. And it really sounded like we were ready to be radical. And to be bold, I would say bold, so bold doula, to really follow your bold agenda to like, let's just be unapologetic that this year, we're going to focus on Black and Brown Members, we're going to amplify them, we're going to identify them, we're going to support them, we're going to give them additional training. We're going to actually do the DEI initiatives that we said we were going to do back in 2020. We're going to put funding behind that. And we're going to have member meetings in Spanish, we're going to you know that we're going to honor these affinity groups, right? We're gonna really focus on expanding educators amongst this organization who are black, who are Spanish speaking, and we were just focusing on that like, let's just move boldly in those things, we were looking at our members who had disabilities to say like What do your needs? What are your needs, finally ready to do some demographic surveys to say who's amongst us? And what do they need? One year dedicated to doing those things would have been a game changer, like life changing, I was like, I'm on board. I knew what my job was, was to then take all that information going into the next year, to layer it upon other affinity groups, other languages, other demographic groups that really need more of us, because we reflect the families that we supported. And right now, our research resources were limited to basically, white privileged folks. Very privileged, very privileged.

Ravae Sinclair: 15:53

..who speak English and anybody else that everybody else has had to get in where they could fit in. And, you know, so I was excited to be coming in behind that. And, yeah, to get that clip was shocking. And then relieving at the same time.

Denise Bolds: 16:15

You know, for me with what this whole thing was the process of really, I was so inspired over the years of watching you work, and watching all the things that you did with donor and what you did for donor as far as the pivot, and really turning the ship around in the middle of the ocean. And if anybody has ever seen that on YouTube, or anything, that's a hell of a thing to do to literally turn an entire ship around, it's a big job, and you've got the current going against you, you got the wind going against, you got a lot of things, but you managed to do it. And that's exactly what you did. So I was always so inspired about what you did to the point that I said, You know what, I would really love to go ahead and continue the work that Ravae has done as leadership and donor, as a black woman and really move this forward. So that was a motivation for me because I benefited from the new web page from the policies and protocols. And from, you know, seeing an example of what Black excellence looks like I've benefited from those things. So I wanted to go ahead and continue to do that work. So when it came time to go ahead and do the community doula work that you were asked to do. And when the board agreed, and everything was moving forward, and all of a sudden, it got pulled and everyone came to me said, Oh, well, you're president, you fire her. And I was like, No, that's not what I'm here to do. And so, you know, one of the premises was well, Denise's Denise is not safe for the organization, because I refused to fire you, I refuse to break that contract that the organization had already already agreed to. And I took massive amounts of bullying, phone calls, emails, text messages, all day long. You need to do your job, you're not doing your job as as as a president, and I know exactly what my job is, this has already been signed, you cannot go ahead and breach this. And if you do breach it, then now it's gonna go to legal and everything else, because that's out of my scope of President you already agreed upon this. But they really, really tried their best to systematically steer me as leader into doing this against you. And I refuse to do it. So I became the pariah and that was it. And that's where everything really fell apart because I refuse to yield. And with DONA organization, and the white people in there didn't realize this. Denise Bowles is in her 50s. She kind of knows how you middle aged white women are thinking and not to mention, she's some some for most of them, you she's over educated than you are. I have more education and many of those white women who are in DONA, and they were very, very intimidated by that because I was completely unflapped by their white, you know, antics that they were doing because I grew up here in Hell's Kitchen. I grew up in an all white Catholic neighborhood. You cannot tell me about these white people. I know that. So I was not moved by them. And when I call them on their stuff, oh my gosh, she said I'm white. Yeah, I said it because you are but when they wanted me to fire you and read and break the contract, all of a sudden, I was to be leader to do the dirty work. But when it came time for me to be leaders to implement these Black initiatives for birth workers, nobody could see the logistics in that. I was too aggressive. So that's where the hypocrisy came in. And I stood my ground and to this day I have no regrets in doing that.

Ravae Sinclair: 19:36

It's kind of a curious I'm like how did this all come about? Like how did they decide to get rid of you and me like

Denise Bolds: 19:44

YOU, because of the contract they didn't want to fight with you with the contract and ME because they

Ravae Sinclair: 19:48

could have just terminated the contract like I guess that's why I feel like it's it's like that horrible say, Why throw the baby out with the bathwater, like or don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, like it doesn't make sense. contract is a contract, a lot of us are in business, when you just say, hey, this doesn't work for me, you terminate the contract, just terminate it, they could have terminated it the way they ended up doing, what they didn't do, what they should have done, whether I stayed on the board or not like I feel like the contract was not synonymous with my role on the board. But if you decided we don't want you to do the community doula program, we want to have somebody separate, then they could have terminated the contract paid me out according to the terms, and I could have continued on with the board. But instead, they mixed it with intermingled it. And I have not held them accountable for what they owe me legally legitimately. And I may or may not, I feel like they're a sinking ship. And it doesn't matter. Ultimately, like that's not really where I want to put my energy. But from time to time, I think about it, because I'm entitled, and it was a ironclad situation. And they do owe me it's very curious that they made to me that they made the decision, not only are we not going to honor the contract, but we're also going to remove you from the board. And we're also not going to pay out the contract. The all three together is actually what's shocking to me because you can terminate the contract, pay me out, move on, that would have been totally one thing, and then removing me from the board that would have been another but to actually think you can get the benefit of my work. And you don't owe me. Okay, you tell me that you care about Black women. You tell me you listen to Black women, you you are no you're part of the problem. You're exactly part of the problem. I don't care how many letters you got behind your name PhD this that I stand for who who who let me tell you, I know the truth. And there were only a few individuals who actually sat around me and voted and made that decision to dishonor this Black woman who gave you free labor for years for many years. Who brought some of y'all to that table in the first daggone place. Trained you on how to be a board member when you had no home training.

Denise Bolds: 22:09

No home training!

Ravae Sinclair: 22:11

I am you decided that you weren't going to pay this Black woman money that is it like you legitimately Oh, okay. So you can tell me on any week, especially now during Black maternal health week that you care about Black women.

Denise Bolds: 22:29

No they cannot.

Ravae Sinclair: 22:30

Okay? You can't speak that. Because I have to tell the truth on that. You know, you don't even listen to folks who ain't in labor who ain't vulnerable to you to people who were you have a contract with you don't even listen to them. So if if I'm in any kind of position vulnerable to you? No way, no way. And to me, what people don't understand is you can't give what you don't have. So you mean to tell me because you don't. You don't honor black women, but you're gonna go and do a training or you think you're gonna pass down that energy to your trainees to doulas that you're in your workshop? Do you think you're going to pass down energy that you want to lead to have to honor black women to listen to black women to respect black women to do good business, to be honest, to be ethical. You can't give what you don't have.

Denise Bolds: 23:15

You can't give what you don't have. And, you know, we had such great incentives that we were planning to make sure that the members had wonderful perks to being a member here at this organization. We were working collaboratively with outside organizations of resources on an on an EAP level for members now,

Ravae Sinclair: 23:35

but that's okay, we got to do it. We're gonna do it over in IPP but yeah,

Denise Bolds: 23:39

group insurance.. I mean, we had so many things that we were looking at to really move down a forward and it was like, no, we want things to stay the same, but was really what was really very

Ravae Sinclair: 23:50

But let me say, these these were legitimate member benefits.

Denise Bolds: 23:54

They were

Ravae Sinclair: 23:55

things that were specifically to enhance the lifestyle, the work and skills of the members that are paying their money every month. And they're still saying what do I get out of this other than saying I'm a DONA doula.

Denise Bolds: 24:09

they still can't see the benefit of paying,

Ravae Sinclair: 24:11

we're talking about thinking about weightwatchers collaborate, like corporate collaborations just for the member

Denise Bolds: 24:18

discount codes on shopping and different things. Legal Support,

Ravae Sinclair: 24:22

tech support, tech support support? Yeah,

Denise Bolds: 24:26

we had all these things lined up. And once again, it just goes to show you that when you have Black women leading in white organizations, when we come in to do this work, there is a lot of fear and intimidation from the white people. What are they gonna do?

Ravae Sinclair: 24:42

Well, yeah, they're very concerned because we haven't done that before it.

Denise Bolds: 24:49

Yeah, it's fear. It's like it's terribly afraid of what you should be afraid of these innovation, right? You should advance mouse battles that you're going to win and support and you should be afraid that you You're not even doing anything in your community in like in Ohio, for instance, that you could be helping and you're not doing so you know, but there was this fear, this fear, Oh, I'm so afraid of Denise Bolds afraid of, I'm here bringing you some services and innovation, I'm very well connected. I know a lot of people in a lot of things out here. And I wanted to bring it all towards this organization, to really uplift coming out of a pandemic. And they just immediately got into this whole white fear mongering thing. And it really was like a Salem Witch Trial. It was, it was absolutely amazing. I mean, a sociologist take apart this entire thing and say, Oh, my God, this is really something. But um, it had to happen. It was a growth factor for me, it really opened my eyes up here as I'm going into my 60s. And I'm glad that I had to go through this very, very, very, very hard lesson. It was very hard, but I'm glad I did. But the hardness and even before I was elected, there was such trepidation. They stalled on this election for so long, they did totally inaccurate and inappropriate things in my election. It was ridiculous. But um, you know, to say that you had two Black presidents, and you basically threw them both out, these are two top doulas in the industry. And you threw them out. It's like, oh, well, that doesn't say very much for you. It really says

Ravae Sinclair: 26:22

Ot it says a lot. It says a lot about like, I feel like, again, this is the map micro, the macro America, like January 6, you're talking about we're holding on to our history, we're holding on, we're going back to what we used to be what we used to have, that's exactly what they were saying, This is too much change. This is not what we want. We don't want to focus on this population when I keep doing this. And so I just feel like it was just like the like, the micro and the macro. Just

Denise Bolds: 26:49

60. Right. And when you look at it today, now, no, overthrowing

Ravae Sinclair: 26:53

literally was like an overthrow. Or it was violent. It was a surprise. And the members didn't even know like it was small group of people. Yeah, but a small group of people made a decision for the whole organization and is still not being held accountable. Members don't know what their power are, what their power where their powers lie, to hold them accountable. The members should have and could have gotten rid of the entire board. Like if you're getting rid of them. Something is going on. Let's get rid of all y'all

Denise Bolds: 27:27

all the board has to go exactly all the board should be going

Ravae Sinclair: 27:30

after somebody somebody did ask for somebody

Denise Bolds: 27:32

say yes, a couple of doula trainers did say it. And it was it was shut down by the other bullies in the group. But you know, I was very deliberate in my calling out the organization as being a trainer lead. That's exactly what it is. It's not member lead at all, not member lead when members still don't have any idea what's happening. And I'm the type of person in my life, if you were doing something better than what I could do, I would happily step aside and let you know exactly, hopefully let you step aside, but I've, I've been gone now for a year, I served 111 days, and then being gone for a year, I have yet to see what is so better than Denise Bolds and Ravae Sinclair leading, I still don't see it.

Ravae Sinclair: 28:15

Well. And yeah, and you know, and, you know, we know that there's a lot of stuff that can happen behind the scenes before it actually shows up in public. And, you know, I had to adjust to being just the public, right? And so all of last year, seeing nothing, no emails, no updates, nothing of significance, even like getting to the end of the year and being like, is there going to be an election because like, that came like the last two weeks of December, like that was so crazy, me knowing how usually there's lots of conversations about things like the election in August and September and October. So it felt like literally nothing was happening. And perhaps nothing was but I mean, I noticed that somebody serving president who was never elected by the members never elected she was run twice that she lost members when whites did not elect her twice and somehow she's in the role of president with no election

Denise Bolds: 29:16

no election

Ravae Sinclair: 29:17

no election somebody who was the certification director became president last year was elevated to the president role no understanding no accountability understanding

Denise Bolds: 29:25

did not do her role to the fullest did not do anything for the members and once again the members did not choose her didn't choose it.

Ravae Sinclair: 29:34

So it's just interesting and then to get the slate and it's all like white women, old white women and

Denise Bolds: 29:41

well they

Ravae Sinclair: 29:43

like I'm not saying old stuff. I'm not there's that's the evidence when I say Oh, you want to go back to the old like to what DONA used to be well look like just look at the evidence. Is there anything innovative happening, anything new, anything No focused on people who aren't the majority, like, you know, and then you give us a slate of like older white women-- boom, right back.

Denise Bolds: 30:10

So no accountability. Last year, we were asking for an accountability factor of putting things on the calendar, good communication skills. These board members went crazy. Why do you want to know that? Why do I have to put my things on the calendar, so members can see what we're doing so that there's any

Ravae Sinclair: 30:28

Communication! people can set expectations, they can set their calendar for the whole year. We as volunteers, right, we were volunteers. We could set our calendar for the year. So things weren't happening last minute and things could be well thought out and planned, and we could in well, resourced. So anyway, yeah, it was just it that whole as we were making these plans to be a little, you know, to be innovative. And to realize now that they were plotting and planning against us while they were while we were having meetings to create infrastructure and a calendar and newness within DONA

Denise Bolds: 31:06

checking our sites for the in person conference, I was on the world checking out hotel sites while they were planning to take my position from me. Literally, you

Ravae Sinclair: 31:16

were in Philly, doing a whole site visit. Oh, like Hey, y'all documentation was they had said they were voting for an in person conference. In Philadelphia, you were doing the final walkthrough for DONA- for the organization. Meanwhile, during this entire time, they were planning to get rid of us, or like we went to see, we went to Montgomery, right where we decided to sponsor

Denise Bolds: 31:46

gynecology conference conference, the first conference, yeah, their

Ravae Sinclair: 31:49

first conference, and we got DONA onboard, you know, to sponsor it to be on the moniker and brought people to the event. We're down at the event. And they were plotting in planning like to get rid of us. And even, you know, the person who became president, was there backstabbing us like, right, in the moment? It's like, wow,

Denise Bolds: 32:14

she was a guest speaker this year!

Ravae Sinclair: 32:17

Well, I mean, I mean, I guess those are the perks. But it's just fascinating, right? Like, it's fascinating. I'm saying this fascinating, but it's a little bit of a if it's a mind screw, if I can say like that.

Denise Bolds: 32:31

Yeah.

Ravae Sinclair: 32:31

And we both you, you and I had like really different reactions, because you know, the light bulbs were going on, we were like, what happened? When, when could they have plotted this and we're like, we were just traveling together! Oh, that's why she said, I have to have lunch with my mom. And no, I can't meet with you. Because my son is sick, like the constant excuses and the resistance to eating with us. And battling lies, the lies, deception, and like, these are the leaders now? these might lead to me. Now, you know, me, having been a former trial attorney, I'm cool with adversarial scenarios, and I know how to play be like respectful and play the rules, I would have respected this, if you just said like, we just really don't think you're good for the organization, I would have respected this as if #1 it had been brought to the members. And there had been a whole conversation about it, because the members elected us, so it's going to be an undoing, then then. And if it's that bad, then you should be able to clearly concisely, present it to the members and and trust that they're probably going to vote us out. In the right thing to do it would have probably been terrible, tear like for us like anybody who would have to have gone through that. That would be really embarrassing, right, but respectful. That probably is what the policy should have been. And a procedure should have been if it didn't exist, somebody should have said, let's be fair about this. If we're going to remove them let's not do it in secret. Let's not do it without revealing the what and the why. Let's do it in a public way. So that everybody understands why we're making this drastic never done before thing. And we can make sure that this is a member led organization.

Denise Bolds: 34:20

didn't happen,

Ravae Sinclair: 34:21

right, of course. And that's probably what should have happened. And that would have given us a chance to say why we were doing what we were doing be confronted because even even somebody who steals a candy bar in our court system, they're given a right to allocution. They're given an opportunity to say their piece, but they're also given the right they're given the opportunity to hear what they are accused of what wrong. That's right. And we weren't afforded any of that. So I think it's laughable to me when I hear like, like this is a member led organization of volunteers when you all had actually voted to get paid.

Denise Bolds: 34:59

There was unanimous-

Ravae Sinclair: 35:00

plot twist-.

Denise Bolds: 35:03

She thought he wanted everybody on that board wanted to get some type of compensation for the amount of time because it takes a lot. It's a lot of time

Ravae Sinclair: 35:11

It's a lot of your personal time, resources. And it is not even even though you sign up people like, well, that's what you signed up for, you really have no idea what you're actually signing up for. its hard to articulate, It is beyond a normal volunteer role, which we had talked about in the years, this, this should be paid roles. This is like you're doing staff work, which is what we were talking, we were exploring the shifting from a management company to maybe having our own staff, because it's such intricate, specific work to this unique organization really needed to return back to us having a staff, I had talked with older past presidents, past- the founders about this structure, because we hadn't too long before joining the management company, did we have our own staff in Indiana, so it wasn't an unheard of thing,- unheard of thing. But it was starting to become a more relevant and plausible thing. It may be necessary for us cost saving. And also, yes, it would have given us but more specific specialized skills that we need, not general skills that were coming from the staffers from the management company. And so like to me, I would have just I could have explained all the things that that I was supportive of. But here's the reality, we you as the president or president elect, we're one vote. So none of the initiatives that we're going to be pursued could have been done without the whole board, the majority saying yes, and everything that that was put forward, there was almost nothing that you put forward around, focusing on members and focusing on Black, Brown and Spanish speaking members for just that year, there was almost nothing that people said no to including board members getting paid for their work, because we are a lot of us were Black and Brown women, taking time away from our businesses to focus on this important, influential organization. That was worth that was worth getting compensated for.

Denise Bolds: 37:21

Absolutely. And when the board had decided, you know, on accountability, and who's actually doing the work that our international director had to leave, because they could not really show all these years-What did they bring forth for the organization? That also was unanimous vote to remove?

Ravae Sinclair: 37:37

It was absent Yeah. But here's the thing, it wasn't about this person. But it wasn't about the person. And that's what that's what I want to add. It wasn't about the person it was this role, the way this role is set up. We're actually not getting out of it, what we need, what we needed was every single person in every area, focusing on international.

Denise Bolds: 37:59

Yep,

Ravae Sinclair: 37:59

that was what we had agreed to, so that it wasn't necessary for just one person to do that, because it was too overwhelming. Understanding that if you're saying My job is to make sure that international is happening in communication, in certification, in education, in treasurer, like, you know, all the places that person would have to bop to 12-13 other people to hold them accountable to make sure International has been upheld. It's not practical. Instead treasurer, you got to think about all your policies and practices about international we can't just do things in we're shouldn't just do things in US dollars, that we need to think about where are we? Where do we have our members, which is where the demographic survey would have come in. And so maybe we should be accepting other currencies. We kept hearing that from our Canadian members--the very ones who were disrespecting me-- being racist and fighting me. I'm here advocating like, hey, the very things that you're concerned about, I'm willing to address because that's legitimate. Exactly. I digress. So making sure that every person like the certification director was focused on international as well, as well as domestic that the education director was focused on international as well as domestic. Like, to me, it made sense we presented it, and they decided, as a as an entire board that yes, we're all going to take on the responsibility of international and the fact that they tried to make that the issue. They tried to make that as an issue of why they got rid of us and it wasn't the person who was in that role. I don't have anything to say against that person. It wasn't about the person, It was about the policy and the practice,

Denise Bolds: 39:49

but the person didn't do their job when it came time for conferences and stuff. It was always such a chore and an effort to pull in our international friends, but

Ravae Sinclair: 39:59

I contend they Couldn't do their job was too overwhelming for one person. That's my argument. I facts. So I'm going to give you that one. The work wasn't getting done, but I also believe it was, it was like, Where do you even begin? It was the structure the organization didn't give the proper structure for international to be addressed. So, but they seem to have it figured out good luck. I ain't seen nothing yet. But okay,

Denise Bolds: 40:23

no, nothing, still nothing from the International at all. But you know, as far as the dollar conversion, dealing with other countries, we were working on all of those things. And it just, that wasn't good enough. And you know, I'm at a point in my life, well, if, if the effort in the work that I'm doing is not good enough, I will happily let somebody else go ahead and take it over. But just don't disrespect me. Plain and simple. Oh, yeah. Not a career making or breaking position for me to be the president of Dona International. But at the same time, it's like I came in, I wanted to really do this work, I wanted to serve the members, I wanted to grow and move forward with the organization, I want to share my connections and move everything. And that just wasn't good enough, it just was not good. Now they're in a place of stagnation. Now, they're in a place where we actually were back in 2018. And it's like, perhaps I

Ravae Sinclair: 41:19

you know what, and I can't say that I know enough to know that oftentimes, there's a ton of stuff happening behind the scenes before it actually comes to fruition. So stagnation, maybe it looks like it from the outside, if they want to know the truth, it looks like nothing's happening from the outside. But it maybe there are things maybe there's innovation, and maybe all of that is coming forward. But if your members don't know, it's almost like we say like in birth, if it didn't, if you didn't write it down, it didn't happen.

Denise Bolds: 41:47

And that's the other part that was very scary that members were still asking for a plausible explanation. And they never got one. As far as why, you know, they never, they never got any kind of clarity. They never got any kind of of conversation. They never had a chance to heal and process from what happened. And it was just like, No, this is what we did and accepted. And that's it. I haven't seen minute meetings. I haven't seen minutes for meetings. I haven't seen reports, I haven't seen quarterly reports. The Annual Report was basically people's descriptions of their positions more than anything else.

Ravae Sinclair: 42:22

And these are the documents that they were hounding us when we were in leadership, they were hounding us for where the meeting minutes where the meeting minutes. Again, these were the bullies that are in the trainer pool, looking to discredit us or catch us up. But now that we're not there, there wasn't nobody was hounding now that they had the leaders in place, that wouldn't change their ability to get compensated, now that they had the leaders in place, who were also trainers, getting all the money coming in from all these workshops, now that they had the leaders in place that they wanted, they stopped rocking the boat,

Denise Bolds: 42:57

they stopped, they got off the boat, and they went on to something else.

Ravae Sinclair: 43:02

Some other mode of transportation, something else,

Denise Bolds: 43:04

you know, patients and paying for their kids weddings and all this other stuff. Because

Ravae Sinclair: 43:09

we were threatening their livelihood for the greater good to say, hey, you need to contribute. Members are not being aren't the focus. So I'm not surprised that there hasn't been this accountability. Because once again, it's not a member led organization. I don't care what they say you not only when you dismiss their lead the leadership that the members voted in, you didn't involve them in that you're right. They didn't give them an explanation. They also did not cater to them. There were no additional member benefits. There was no additional member meetings or focus. There was no additional accountability. It was just back to business. As usual. We got rid of those two people who are threatening our livelihood who will who want us to do more with less, and now we're happy. And I think what's really fascinating because I think some people live in really small worlds. They think that they did some harm to me. Or to you. Oh, I'm down to size. I'm like, Girl, I'm so big. I'm big as this hair on my head child. Like please, please understand.

Denise Bolds: 44:12

It wasn't always my dream to be a DONA trainer. It wasn't because I've never been the one to fit into the mold of things. I've always been outside. Very comfortable being the awkward outside person. But here I am now what am I doing? My own training. I'm doing Black women Do VBAC.

Ravae Sinclair: 44:30

That's what I'm talking about! What has happened in the last year, my friend?

Denise Bolds: 44:37

Well, what happened in the past year my hair grew back. First of all, I grew my hair back. Things have just looked up for us nonstop. You and I have been calling. Guess what? Guess what opportunity I got guess what called guess what happened? So many things have blown up since we basically gracefully left the situation that we were not wanted in. Plain and simple. We were not wanting to out there, and we left and boom, all these other things have happening. I started up another organization black women do VBAC. I'm training doulas around the nation. I'm getting ready to do the parent model. I'm doing high risk training for doulas. I'm doing so much work here. And it's just been amazing not to mention ibclc work, not to mention still doing my Doula practice. I haven't stopped working since this whole thing left.

Ravae Sinclair: 45:24

You sure have it. You've been like the Energizer Bunny, I'm looking at you. I'm like, Girl, I gotta lay down. Like, good luck with that. But yeah, I mean, that's why I say like, it was a "freeing" like for me. Like I said, initially, there was no depression about it at all. I was just like, look, Chile!.

Denise Bolds: 45:41

Well, I was disappointed. I wanted to do this work. I want to know

Ravae Sinclair: 45:45

I know you did. But you know, the whole time I kept saying, Denise, this is not my president year, like, I'm happy to do these meetings with you. But I'm just in the background.

Denise Bolds: 45:53

Girl, you were like, Denise, You don't know what you're getting yourself.

Ravae Sinclair: 45:57

Yeah, And I wanted to be able to do it. And I wanted to I didn't want to get pulled in at the level that I was not knowing now we can look back and say, Oh, the intensity of it was because they were backstabbing, and you know, manipulating. Oh, yeah. That was the pressure even though we didn't know what was happening. We I don't think either one of us could have dreamt that they were working to get rid of us why it was a lot of pull intention. So we did understand that so because it was so the pressure was so big at the end getting released and like immediately coming back stateside, like a few days after. And yeah, cuz I was on I was on at the beach. Why am I have my luxury five star resort vacation with my two best friends- Um, yeah. When I came back, I was free of like, Oh, my entire calendar opened up. Yes. And that's when I was like, Oh, my God, it had taken over. It's like, how do you run an agency? How do you run a business? How do you take care of yourself when like, literally, my calendar was full of volunteer meetings, meetings, we were really running the organization. So I was really relieved, I was freed up and immediately got calls about opportunities to start something of my own, to teach to pull in to do this

Denise Bolds: 47:19

consulting work with marketing agencies.

Ravae Sinclair: 47:22

It was a lot, it was a lot right in the beginning. And then once we got to the end of the summer, you know, I was slowed down by COVID. And I loved I love being forced to be slowed down. I didn't know how to be at a slower pace. And what I started to embrace was, hey, this is actually probably normal. And I really had to think through how being an --------, that toxic environment within leadership had me in the middle of a pandemic had me dysregulated

Denise Bolds: 47:54

Yeah, that was not healthy for you.

Ravae Sinclair: 47:56

No, no, it wasn't healthy. And of course, when you start to come down, you realize how the body has been compensating. So the beauty of like, what has happened over the last year for me was, I've gotten back to me, you know, back to like a regular business pace back to serving families back to growing an agency, and I've moved to a new city. So a lot of people didn't know that I moved to a whole nother state and city. So it gave me a chance to like settle in which I hadn't had a chance to do before I became president. But I like I had a chance to like get settled in and then also had a chance to regain health in a way that like have been really missing since 2020. Or so it really says 2019 Because my president year was crazy. And we as soon as I ended it, we went right into the pandemic. So you know, I think I a lot of people met me, and I experienced a lot of people in a highly dysregulated state, like not sleeping working around the clock. And so I came down from that, and had to like, integrate, like, what's a normal work pace and and also having to figure out what because I could do so many things. So many opportunities were coming. I had to stop and say, Well, what actually is my destiny? What is my passion? What do I truly want to do? Just because I can do it? Should I do it? So it was great to actually be able to do the slide with you because you understood it you were experiencing it differently. But you also understood what we had just gone through. Oh, yeah, yeah, we kind of came we kind of got to the anniversary date through different paths, but we got there still, you know, shining, basically.

Denise Bolds: 49:41

that was just a wonderous thing there with this whole thing happening. You know, because before all of this, you and I, we were well acquainted, but we weren't close. And I admired you from afar. I met you on a board when I came in as the Northeast Regional Director, you were the intercultural director. We weren't close. We weren't even really, friends. We were more acquaintance. But now we have this great friendship, this great relationship that we did not have before. So I'm just grateful. Yeah, I'm glad it happened. Because now we're super close, we're good friends with each other with every each other. And, um, you know, I really appreciate who you are, and your dedication to black people, and to to, you know, black women, and you stuck by me in a very precarious time that you didn't have to, you really didn't have to do that. But yeah, so we became, you know, good friends now and, you know, have each other's back on things sincerely, without an agenda. And

Ravae Sinclair: 50:40

that's hard. That we can look back and realize the interference was like, you know, that there was some heavy motivation of like, really, how can I hustle you- how can I get something out of you,

Denise Bolds: 50:54

it really was, but you know, DONA has a history of being chronically dysfunctional. When you hire when you train doula trainers who are not certified in childbirth education or lactation certified, and you put them in a training mode, and they've they profit and they they move forward in this. But meanwhile, they really don't have the training background to do that training, but you put them in it, or you put the Spanish speaking doula trainer in as a doula trainer, but she doesn't want to speak Spanish, and she doesn't want to train in Spanish. So for years DONA has really been moving on this dysfunctional train that they just didn't get off of it. I don't think I want to get off of it, because the dysfunction benefited some people, but it didn't benefit Black or BIPOC people. But, you know, it was it really was something here. But you know, what the past president, people don't understand this person really doesn't have the credentials of excellence that that bar was raised so high for "US". But for this past president...

Ravae Sinclair: 51:55

You already know, I'm not I'm not even speaking on that. Because............ In fairness, because, you know, I feel like well, I mean, that person is a big part of this experience, right. One of the things that I kind of hit me later in this process was experiencing betrayal. Betrayal of a fellow like a fellow Black woman who, you know, you're like, Oh, we're in the trenches together, oh, I'm gonna pull you up. I'm gonna give you skills and opportunities. And, um, you know, and it's the betrayal part is I feel like a big part of maturing. And a public betrayal is really interesting toexperience. And what I will say the hardest part about it was, we were responsible for ushering a lot of Black birth workers into this work.

Denise Bolds: 52:58

That's right.

Ravae Sinclair: 52:58

And I mean, 1000s, right, who were looking to us as leaders, because I had started training doulas in my president year. So not only am I, your trainer, I'm the president of this organization. We are maintaining space for them, like in social media groups, and things like that mentoring, offering support. And the so for me, the biggest part of the betrayal, the hardest part of the betrayal, was watching them be so confused about a couple of things like, Who do we believe? Well, honey, I don't have a story to sell to you. I wasn't there. I'm the subject of the work- of the act. I know what you know. So you decide who would you I don't know believe I don't, I didn't, it wasn't even like I was telling a story. So it's not like, you have to believe me, I just experienced it. Right? But it was like, Who do you have loyalty to? Which I'm like, you don't--- You don't have to choose. I said that to everyone the very same night [of the dismissal]. Um, but like, Who do you trust because it's really down to issue of trust. I trusted you to guide me, I trusted you. I chose this organization because you were the face of it. I trusted that you when you said this organization was a safe space. And now look how they're treating you as a Black woman. That was the hardest part for me was to watch people be really, really hurt as they witnessed the dismissal with no explanation, and they witnessed the betrayal-- whether they acknowledge it as that or not--and the witnessing, so I was witnessing them witnessing.

Denise Bolds: 54:48

Correct.

Ravae Sinclair: 54:48

I had no answers. And also when they came to me I'm like, I don't I'm not asking you to choose who should go like get what you need to get from whomever. My door is. still open, nothing has shifted for me, I was just on vacation, I came back and everything got cut off. I'm still who I am, I'm not shifting, I'm not changing. So it was very difficult to watch people try to figure out where, where they belonged in the space that we had created together. And you know, so I had to start creating spaces separately. But as I was creating those separate spaces, I also realized that I was different, that some of the spaces the qualities were not unique to me that were unique to the other person. And so I had to start shedding that right letting stuff go. Very, it's a it was a fascinating, I can look back now and be like, wow, like, we all went through something. Um, we were really in a really positive trajectory. Oh, yeah. But I'm really grateful that before it got too large, it failed. well, it got to authenticity. Let me say that. Yeah. So whoever authentically connected with that person, great, they went, and they found still the work that they needed. And those authentically connected with me and the work that I do have stayed and, you know, remained. And what also came out of that was see, because that person was such high energy and performance. I had taken on some of that. And I had to learn that either you're with me, because I'm not high energy performance. I'm serious, like I am now. Like, I'm, like, thoughtful. And I'm trying to think I'm always thinking about the big picture. What's the next right move? That brings us all forward, not me. Not next hustle, not the next dollar. But like, brings us all for it. And that work is a little slower and quieter. So I was actually worried, like, Oh, I'm not showing up doing lives and that out of that. And because that was a feature of the partnership that existed. So I just had to be, this is a really good experience of me getting authentic. And me just being like, Hey, who's with me, they're with me. If they're not, they're not. I'm okay. Because I'm doing my own healing. I'm in my own process. And whatever I do, is has to be authentic to me and what God gives me to do in this work. So it was it's been it's been interesting year.

Denise Bolds: 57:27

Yeah, it's been very a lot. You know, I realized when we were dismissed, people were calling me they were crying. They were very upset. They didn't understand what was happening. Like, just because they voted, but they've been watching me over the years. I've been a doula for nine years. And I didn't realize the enormity of how many people were watching or are watching me and the work that I do and the fact that I'm doing it with integrity, when I flop I flop flying, I fly, but you know, in between for me, and that, you know, when I made the call that hey, you know, this organization is really being run by trainers. And the leadership has always been with trainers and they do have a vested interest in making sure that their stuff is remaining a certain way. And us coming in as non trainers, we were looking at things through a different lens didn't realize that so many people were watching the work that I do here in New York City, New Jersey, Connecticut, as far as being a birth doula as far as doing activism work as far as being a Black woman as far as being a DONA Black doula. Oh my god. When I show up to you know, events here in New York, oh my god, who's that Black DONA, doula and I had to explain to people I'm not here for DONA. I'm here for the Black doulas who need to see someone like me. Because as I said in my in my live last year, when I when we left when we were gone, I made it very plain to the members stay there if that's going to get you to into those hospitals to see those Black and Brown families. Hold on to that donor certification. That's the value it really has at this point. If it's going to get you through the door to see those Black and Brown families than please-- because that's why I'm holding on to it- it's the only reason that I'm there don't is not doing anything else for me. I walked away from a Bali retreat for advanced doulas and I made it very plain. What could you teach me here and advanced doula skills when I'm teaching advanced doula skills? Why not have a Black doula be one of your facilitators in Bali? No, wecan't do that.

Ravae Sinclair: 59:21

Oh, my goodness, why would we do that?

Denise Bolds: 59:24

Why would you want to share the pot? Why would you want to share the wealth? You've been milking this cow, this cow that's been in a coma for almost 30 years, but you're still getting the milk from it. But you know, that's not what they see. Because your vision does not include Black and Brown people and that's fine. But I was really very moved and very touched by the amount of people that reached out and said, Oh, my God, Denise, I'm so sorry. This happened. I've been following you. You're a good doula. I see the work that you're doing. You're always looking out for doulas. And that's just been my mission. That's been my calling to look out, calling Jim Kim Kim James and saying, Hey, can you put up a designation shown on Doulamatch so the families can find Black and Brown doulas and all the other things that I've done that I don't even talk about, but doulas actually are benefiting from them. It's like, Fine, you know, going up to the state and testifying before the Senate about the importance of what doulas have done in the pandemic and how we held the city together here in New York. The doulas did that. The doulas kept those babies fed with Pampers and, and donor milk and, and all kinds of stuff we were doing. So you know, I've always been the person who's been there for the for the doulas, I have not been there for leadership or trainers. Because to me being a donor trainer, that was not really the top thing I wanted to do. Yeah, I could always train outside of Dota. And I'm doing exactly that right now.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:00:45

Well, the same you know, you know, the story where I was given the ultimatum, either you're going to be a board member, or you're going to be a trainer, and I chose to be a board member like that, like, being a trainer,

Denise Bolds: 1:00:56

If you were white, you would have never been given that ultimatum, you know that!

Ravae Sinclair: 1:00:59

Yeah, but you know what freedom in that honestly, it like you don't even know See, God has always still protecting Right? Like, I didn't even know that that was protection being given to me back in 2014. A nasty way that gave me you know, an ultimatum, I chose with my heart, which was to lead so that I could have a bigger impact on creating change. I felt like oh, the trainer thing will come down the road. I'm not ever realized that it was never coming. And that's okay. Because just like you, I'm now creating my own Association, my own membership organization where people all these things that we were hoping to implement it that we wanted to see and that we need a lot of us need a whole we need a professional organization, where we feel honored, we really feel respected, where it is truly meant for us, like us, a variety of us. And also is has a different level of mission. So me launching international perinatal professionals is about putting bringing perinatal professionals into the space besides doulas. Like there are a lot of people who impact a system change. And that's there's doctors all B's, pelvic floor therapists, massage therapists. Anybody who touches a pregnant body sees the broken spaces in the system. And they're, they're standing in the gap. Okay, well, let's get us all in a room. So we can actually start having creating policy change. So we can actually start looking at the policies with all these different points of view. And actually creating something that is holistic, something that is healing, something that is redeeming something that is safe, that prioritizes centers, birthing bodies, let's actually get together and do it for real. And so yeah, I think part of like, you know, you say, under pressure is where you see what people are made of. Pressure makes diamonds, diamonds, pearls--all that good stuff now, so this year has been quite, quite, quite amazing. Um, I would say, my, the best expression of what I experienced was expansion. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And more of a feel like an opening like, a authenticity, like it was a space to show us who you really are. Or show yourself first. Exactly. So it's been so good. It's been very, very good. It's been so good. And you know, I just came off from talking, doing Black maternal health talk for NAABB, and you know, serving on that the NAABB board serving on the Iowa Black Doula Collective board, you know, being able to move forward for us, for Black and Brown families, and I'm in specifically Black, like I always say Black and Brown, because there's a measure of there's an overlap in our all of our experiences, right? And then there is a distinction. And so, you know, I can take it take the work so far. And then I have to say, Hey, this is this. This is now outside of my expertise, experience. But what a lot of times when when you people just see us, they don't know where we are. They don't know where we're from, and because some some of us are so brown that like is, you know, a process but but I love the work that I'm doing where it's like fully centered on black burning bodies. Absolutely. And looking at the policies and being fully in that work. Being able to say, hey, like, today, hey, I'm so free to in my time that yes, I just taught you about how to not let mistreatment go unchecked. And there's these processes, but you know what? Call me I can help you get started because that's not what

Denise Bolds: 1:04:59

you do. Did that I'm like,

Ravae Sinclair: 1:05:02

Oh, girl, girl, you know how much stuff I got to do. But But I felt like that was my reasonable service to people who actually had showed up on the screen. Oh, from the

Denise Bolds: 1:05:13

heart, it came from the heart. That's what we're vulnerable. I

Ravae Sinclair: 1:05:15

asked him, Is there some mistreatment that has gone unchecked? They were honest. And so it's like, okay, well, let me not just put you out there and not in like, leave you hanging? Yes, I gave them some resources. But, but we're in community, right? Like, some of us need a hand and the small of our back, some of us need a nudge. And so I'm, I'm welcoming those calls. But that's now that my time is freed up, I can make those choices and I can make space for us. So that's the gratitude I have for the release that happened on April 11 2022. Super happy, super happy. What's funny is, you know, my number is two. So for that to be 411 22. I was like, Oh, my tools, my tools are showing up for me. And when I even when I didn't know, that was all happening. Yeah,

Denise Bolds: 1:06:06

yeah, I knew things were coming down the pipe there, you know, but I just didn't know how it was coming. Because, you know, things were being said, when I was president, when I would make statements, the bullies would come out and make these you know, these very methodical one would say something, then the next one, then the next one, then the next one. It was kind of like a gangbang situation they were doing here. Very predictable. White people are very predictable. And, you know, it's like, well, here, here, here it comes, here it comes, they're going to be frightened, they're going to be unsure. Is she safe? Is she reliable? Oh, I don't know. She's not safe with the organization. And now here comes the Exodus. And it's not just us. This same thing has happened with other organizations. It's happened with ICANN, it's happened with Lumos. It's happened with donor, all of the major white LED organizations when they have black leaders. They tank every time.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:07:04

Yeah, and we should have a car I know we're planning on having a conversation with some of those leaders where we can call out the toxicity of some of these organizations.

Denise Bolds: 1:07:14

I can't wait for that.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:07:15

I know it'll be great. But part of this is I feel like even us having this conversation is like this is not about them. First of all, this is about you and I about like examples of how you can be betrayed in public by a best friend by

Denise Bolds: 1:07:32

a close person

Ravae Sinclair: 1:07:34

who sat at your table in your home, who you know things about all of that you can be betrayed, for what for nothing, and do it in a public way. And you can recover. Birth workers are being betrayed by other birth workers. People are scamming people. We just talked about how somebody copy or like copied words off of somebody's website that didn't somebody else a Black doula just did a post about that. Just earlier this week, like there are betrayals, there are people stealing there are people hurting and creating harm. We just because we're birth workers were supposed to be lovely, amazing people. Some people I'm like,

Denise Bolds: 1:08:12

Well, that's what I thought when I was coming into it.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:08:14

I know. We'll see how people operate. I was like, Oh, my God. Just people she people are vulnerable to her like, yeah, that's incredible. Holy, incredible is incredible to me, but fine, whatever. I realize people put on airs, and it's easy to be deceived, it's easy to see what you want to see. And it's easy for people to decide you're an opportunity, and that hurts, and but you can recover from that. Let allow it to be a maturing experience, allow it to be a growth experience, and allow it to pull up peel back some layers within you. And we're just an example of like, yeah, it happens. And it can be for your good. You know, I love that. I love the saying what the devil meant for evil. God meant for good. It is always true in my life. So it's, it's really it's just I can't say oh, the "freeing" is the best word. And what I love is as you know, because over time, people are gonna keep their mouth shut over time. The truth will come out over time the scheme will fall apart. Because that's just you know, you built the house on quicksand. Well, it'll fall as the truth comes out. There'll be this opportunity for vindication. I don't have to say or do anything I don't have. I don't have to take the contract and go sue them for the money that is due to me. I don't

Denise Bolds: 1:08:30

it's not enough.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:08:36

It really is it it really isn't. It's not worth it right. The time- but it also is just okay. It'll come back to you. So I want to just my my thoughts are, you know what, you're not alone, birth workers, a lot of stuff is happening. You're going to be betrayed by legislature. As people are going to say one thing and do another, as you're fighting for Black birthing rights, you're even in business in your community, it just sometimes it's can be a lonely road, it can feel violent, it cannot, it can feel very unloving. But it also can be this, like we have this shared experience, we bonded, we decided we chose to support one another, we chose to support one another in the way that we could, while we were also having our own experience and being true to ourselves. And if you just stick with it, you can look back and see there are authentic people, there are people who are in the fight right alongside you, they're not afraid to be on the front lines, not afraid to get dirty with you for the greater good. And so I feel really good about what we've done. I feel really good about how we did it. So, so much of our journey was quiet. And behind the scenes. Nobody saw it. But you and I know, I feel I feel like, you know, we did not there was not an expansive amount of talking negatively about people specifically

Denise Bolds: 1:11:08

Oh, no, no, we---didn't we know there was, yeah,

Ravae Sinclair: 1:11:10

We're not spending our energy like that, we really decided that we were going to put it in God's hands and that it must be for the best. And let's see what that best is. To stand here today and see that between international professional, perinatal Professionals Association and Black women do V back already, because our time was freed up because we were freed up, we were able to actually do work that impacts the greater good. Exactly.

Denise Bolds: 1:11:38

God just wanted us to really keep our skills and these wonderful visions that He gave and gives us, He wanted us to do this work for us and not put it into an organization where there's no appreciation, and there's no respect or value there with that. I'm very grateful to have been removed in that, in that sense that in that circumstance. And you know, for the for the people who did the betrayal, you know, they're gonna have to answer to that, because I gave genuinely I prayed with some of these people cried with them, help them with their family situations. I was right there with these people in a very genuine way. And then when my mother died, one of them, you know, actually showed their their true colors and really treated me very badly. And, you know, in advocating for myself and removing myself, I then became the pariah Oh, how dare you advocate for yourself and tell me you're not gonna put up with my bullshit? No, I'm not. So, you know, that's how things happen. But you know, it's all good. Like I said, I'm I am living my very best life. I'm going into my 60s. And I love what I do. I love this work. I love creating and building forth. I just had to do a call me that the other day, she says, You know, I love the fact, Denise, that you keep recreating yourself, you keep doing these different things and recreating yourself. And I'm like, Well, you know, I came into this doula practice at 50. I didn't have a whole lot of time here. But I'm trying to make the most of the time, and some really great connections, I have some beautiful connections out here with wonderful birth workers. And just, you know, I'm just so grateful that every time you and I talk, I'm always learning something somehow in our conversation. And it's like, you know, when I hang up, I'm like, you know, that was really good. But she said, and I'm like, he's like, that's really great, you know, that reciprocity of giving him standing. And it's not about age, you know, I'm older than you, but I'm learning from you. It's like, Are you kidding me? So you know, that's what it's all about. And that's what women should be doing out here is uploading and learning from each other, rather than this whole tearing down and all this other stuff that other people like to live in that behave in that lifestyle? That's just not me. I don't like living like that.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:13:50

I mean, I think I made some decisions right away, that like whatever this experience is going to be, I'm going to I'm choosing to be authentic. Yeah. I mean, to be transparent. If people ask me questions, I'm going to give them the answer that I. And if I get more information, I'll toggle back and, and give them more. But I was going to be authentic to myself transparent, and I wasn't going to limit myself. Because once it's for me, once I was outside the organization, I was like, Well, the truth is, I know how to do it. That's where that's where they fucked up-- when you gave me the keys to the Kingdom and i learned how to do it. I'm like, Oh, I'm gonna do it.

Denise Bolds: 1:14:30

And you, you did it. Well, you didn't Well, for donor for a long time, this organization that threw you under the bus, they're still benefiting off of your intellectual property. They still are! Websites, policies, workflows. I mean, so many things that they're benefiting off of what you created and gave for free.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:14:54

And so that was the lesson I was like, Oh, why don't I do all of this? Ever and ever do that? Again? You can't you can't even what people say pick your brain. You can't do that from beginning to nuts. Like, what was I thinking? But the beauty of it is God had a master plan, right. And so now there's this opportunity for me to take what I know, to build and to do it with with ease. You know that's my word, my word from last year and for this year, is to duel with ease, because I'm with people who want to work with me, there you go. have the same vision, the same needs the same level of excellence, the same goals. And so, you know, that was a big hump. I was like, I don't want to go back out front. I don't want to do an associate

Denise Bolds: 1:15:37

You really didn't. did it? You really did not want to do that.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:15:39

I don't want to have a target on my back. I'm about nobody talking about me. Looking at me with anybody picking apart. And it took and it was you and about four other people consistently engaged with me, helped me get over that hump. Like, no, I'm not doing anything else. I don't want to be out front. I don't want anybody looking at me. I don't know why. Because girl, this is fabulous. I don't know why. What was I thinking? I'm kidding. But I'm kind of not kidding. But it's about for me, I just had to get strong again. That was just an example. Like, I had that experience. I had some moments where it did beat me down. I was like dang!

Denise Bolds: 1:16:23

of course it's human nature. Yeah. But but shame on them. Because, like I made it very plain when I was president, you know, the way you treated and spoke to Ravae that's not happening with me.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:16:35

Yeah, I allowed.

Denise Bolds: 1:16:38

You know, and shame on them for even doing something like that. Yeah. I mean, serve you were in a volunteer position at the time, shame on them for behavior.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:16:48

You know, I have I have a high capacity for conflict, right? Because I'm not like you throw a little Sunday. Me, we're in court. I just like for me, I'm just reading a lot of it. It wasn't personal for me until, right? This was personal. But a lot of it I could tolerate because I was like, Okay, you just have to spend some time helping them understand the what and the why. And guess what I'm done with that, you know, as I grow it, I'm not doing a lot of negotiating with people like so. I was like, Everybody get ready, because this will this is what it is. And this is coming out of years of experience and lots of collaboration. You can't do an organization where you're where your goal is to bring in multiple points of view, and not be a natural collaborator, but there will be some things I will not tolerate disrespect will not be tolerated. Exactly. Discrimination will not be tolerated, that we will be having conversations that benefit everyone. That's right. Um, and that's, that's what I'm choosing to walk away from, I don't want to be a part of organization where only one group of people benefit and their intentionality is to keep making money and to never. Yeah, there is no member benefit other than the name. So my, you know, I want you to have the name, I want you to have the legal support, I want you to have the real estate support, I want you to have the financial management support, I want you to have the support of an affinity group of peers, regionally and have like, you know, racial ethnically or life experientially, I want you to have the benefit of being in a group like a peer group with obstetricians and dentists, pediatric dentists, and things like that way you can figure out how can we grow in our region, people who see the broken parts of the system and want to grow it, so I'm not but so the pettiness, the self centeredness, none that has no space, we got bigger issues, we got bigger fish to fry, right and

Denise Bolds: 1:18:51

nasty some of those people, and I don't say this word too often, they were pigs, and it's just like, Ah, how could you behave like that? And how was that behavior permissible all these years, these people should have been escorted out of the organization without any hesitation, because of the toxicity that they maintain in this organization is its downfall and putting them into obscurity. It.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:19:16

So when you say that something people like what if it was that why did you stay? I'm like, Why do you stay in corporate America? A lot of times it's because you're doing your part, you're making your money, and you have a level of tolerance for it. And also, for me, the biggest was I believe I could be a part of the change.

Denise Bolds: 1:19:33

Oh, yeah. It's really do I want it to contribute to that change. I really wanted it Yeah.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:19:38

So you know, when I had to do the calculations, I was like, Oh, that was seven years of work and you know, the seven keeps coming up. Technically eight, but I had a year off the board right. So seven years of immersion that I'm going to use it for good. I my full heart and intention is to use it for good. I'm so grateful for the growth I'm so grateful for to know I can play with the big girls, right? Like some people don't even see themselves as, oh, I know. I am the big girl. Okay. And I know my capacity for influence and change. Oh, yeah, super excited for, for it to be coming off the ground, I'm super excited for Black women do vbac, I can't wait to take the class and taking the test. I want to be in all of that. And for all the other classes that you're doing, you know, life is good.

Denise Bolds: 1:20:30

Life is very good black women, black birth deserve black, doulas, black and brown doulas who are skilled and supported to support these births. I'm really, really proud to be able to do that work. I'm really, really happy that I'm in this place. What I'm really happy about is I didn't back down in my leadership with DONA, I did not back down, I stayed right there. And I went up against some really nasty people and nasty things. And that's the dozen things. And I stood my ground on what is right, and what the members needed and why I was there. I did not put my personal agenda forward. As a matter of fact, I was willing to give DONA all of this stuff that I'm doing now God said, Denise, no, you're doing this for you. You're not doing this for them. You're doing it for you. I was going to give them all of this stuff.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:21:20

Right. But it probably wouldn't have right and it probably wouldn't have been, you know, the opportunity now is for it to be wide received, well received. And super impactful because the package it gets delivered in matters, you know,

Denise Bolds: 1:21:34

it does. And what they don't realize is, is that you're going into these conversations with senators, politicians, leaders, community stakeholders, and people are saying, Oh, well, we would love to have you here. But do you want us to use the DONA brand to identify you? And my first answer is no. I don't want you to use that to identify me because that's not who I am. So they're pushing themselves into obscurity. Because these people who are in leadership positions who are out there doing this work, they are asking, they're not just automatically putting me in the DONA brand out there on programs and speaking, they're like, do you want to use the DONA logo? I'm like, No, I don't know.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:22:15

I'm a I'm a professional birth doula from IPP honey. Yeah,

Denise Bolds: 1:22:18

I have something else here. I don't need that. And I'm going on about my business with that says, what they don't realize is, they're not at the table. There for that they'd have they haven't done a survey in their membership for years, they're missing a lot of money in dollars on grant funding, in order to even give statistics on what they can do and what they want to do. So they're missing out on a lot of things, because they're focused on that dead cow on the ground, that they're still tapping and getting milk from. That's what that and

Ravae Sinclair: 1:22:53

they're not just structured, where they're structured, they're not structured to actually benefit from grant money, because there's no,

Denise Bolds: 1:23:01

no, no, but they could do other they could do other funding. And we

Ravae Sinclair: 1:23:04

ain't got no ideas we're gonna keep a girl

Denise Bolds: 1:23:10

It's really a shame that they really missed out on so much. And, as I said before, as President, I will say it again, DONA has some of the most talented duelists I've ever met. And these people are out here doing some amazingly great things. And they've got some tools in there that are really shitty. So you've got extremes here, but really, really talented people. And then you've got the other ones who are just, you just they don't even need to be a part of the organization, but white entitlement has kept them there.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:23:39

And I think that there's a difference. I think people can be amazing birth workers, like doulas and not be great business people or collaborators are like kind hearted, good hearted aligned people. And I saw that dichotomy quite a lot. And so it is what it is. But I felt like it was super important for us to like have this conversation since the disruption or the eruption or the freeing happened a year ago yesterday, like on the first day of black Maternal Health Week, and we're black maternal health leaders we're birth worker leaders, we're, you know, social workers. We're lawyers. We're leaders period. And so it's I think it's important for people to get a chance to see the evolution to see how things shift people always people often hear about the thing they're gossiping, your phone was ringing and people were texting me what happened? What happened? What happened? What happened? We don't know what happened, but we can tell you what has happened since then. Yeah, I got the T on that. Okay, I got the whole story on that. And it's been amazing. You see, do you see this flourishing it is honey girl she look

Denise Bolds: 1:24:51

like I'm hitting 60 No, no

Ravae Sinclair: 1:24:55

no, I'm I had to get with this skincare plan. You gotta let Yeah. My life can be rough and rocky as you're walking in your purpose, and you can let those eruptions catapult you to the next level. And that's what we've done. So I hope that people tune in, get registered for black women do V back, there'll be lots of offerings, I hope people check out if you're looking for a place to be as having membership where you can get continuing education where you can get camaraderie and connection and where you can be a part of the system change. Look at IPP, we'll be website soon so that you can have a space where you can grow as a birth worker, we're committed. Very excited, I'm excited. Like I said, I'm had to get on the website, take my quiz for black women do V back because a

Denise Bolds: 1:25:43

You get 8 contact hours you know, I apply a contact hours. That's great.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:25:43

Yeah, it's amazing. And I need the reminders. I need the skill. So many of my clients are V backing. And you know, for me, I know it's so much of a mindset, but what else is it you know, as a 20 year vet I'm sure you are about to teach me some things I don't know. And or I forgot, so I'm looking forward to it so that my clients can benefit. Yeah,

Denise Bolds: 1:26:07

well, I'm so grateful I had my first cohort from people from Washington State all the way back here to New York City and in between in the Midwest, they came in and took the class they really enjoyed it. So I'm really appreciative because black women do have the highest statistics when it comes to C section. And they have the lowest outcomes for VBAC because they're simply not in the know. So being a VBAC and C section doula now you can actually empower these families and getting them to the births that really they can be very proud of an own. If it's a surgical birth, that's what your body could do. Let's own it. If it's

Ravae Sinclair: 1:26:43

I just had a thought about systems change. The VBAC calculator when you just said like black women hire me, because when we saw that on in New Amsterdam, we were watching how that factor of being black had that black birthing doctor, right? He her bishop score was thrown

Denise Bolds: 1:27:01

very low. Her VBAC was very low, but as soon as they took her race out. The score went up, and she had a vaginal birth bone. Yeah. Okay, so

Ravae Sinclair: 1:27:09

maybe our very first advocacy work project might be on this. It'll collaborate with you on the VBAC the bishop score. Oh,

Denise Bolds: 1:27:18

yeah. Oh, yeah. Is it there's a lot of done there's a lot of work on my biggest thing. I'm telling all the leaders of birth leaders now please speak with your local government to change the postpartum care with the insurance companies to allow black and brown moms to have a two week postpartum follow up not a six to eight week.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:27:38

Oh, you know, I'm with it. i Yes, I think that's big, huge. It's huge, because we have the research that backs it up, it says we lose the most black moms and babies in the first 42 days post birth by them. They haven't even seen that they haven't even made it to their six week checkup. So you're absolutely right about how many things go wrong, critically wrong, critically radically wrong. And those first the first few weeks that's we can't even have this little conversation without realizing hey, we let's do some collaboration. So

Denise Bolds: 1:28:13

more work. More work.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:28:14

No it's okay, though. It's good. Like we say like good trouble, right? Like it's trouble. Okay, everybody, well, we we appreciate you for hanging with us. I was like, I don't know, like two hours, I have to look and see. But we hope that you got something out of it. But mostly the joy, the restoration, the growth and authenticity. Like we were here, we were thriving, we didn't just survive, we thrive and just like we're trying to get our black moms and babies. We want them to survive and we want them thriving. So we went through our own metamorphosis, our own rebirth, and we're right where we want all of you to be but all of our families to be so thank you for connecting with us. We look forward to the next chat. We had to see if we can get everybody together for that black leaders and

Denise Bolds: 1:28:59

that's happening.

Ravae Sinclair: 1:29:00

Okay, that's the next one. All right. Have a good one, everybody. We'll see you soon.