Part 3 of 3: 2 Hours, 2 Doulas, 2 Doctors: The Truth Behind the Headlines

2 Hours, 2 Doulas, a Hotel & an Airbnb: The Story Behind the Headlines

Time:: 2:54:27

Part 3

Denise Bolds

charge here. It's me. Already had the decision from the mom's mouth.

Shira Lawrence

He wanted, I needed to talk to her myself alone. We have this audio which we're going to release. And so he's like, you know, I've talked to her now. I now understand this is her decision, and hers alone. And and we're okay now. And so we're like, okay, thank you, sir. And does this mean we can go back in the store? We were humbling because we're trying to get back to our girl. And so he's like, I need to go ask the nurse. Now, why would you go ask the nurse when you're the one who told a nurse to go? In there in the first place? Sir, it was your decision.

Denise Bolds

Command can be manipulated to to eject doulas. One minute the nurse has. The next minute, the doctor

Shira Lawrence

nurse, and you hear us

Jet'aime McKinney

saying, can we please go back in now? Like, again. We're like, please. He's like, I've got to go talk

Denise Bolds

to the nurses, right? Because if the nurse says she doesn't want you, then he's going to say, Well, no, you

Shira Lawrence

can't stay. But it was never our nurse that had any issue. It was the triage nurse. We're not even assigned

Ravae Sinclair

in triage anymore. We're

Shira Lawrence

past that even over there, our nurse was we were one team, one sound, one band. What an abuse of clarification.

Ravae Sinclair

And people can say what they want to say, I'm here for the comments. But the nurse

Shira Lawrence

her ethnicity. She was like Hispanic or Dominican or something, right?

Jet'aime McKinney

She was of Hispanic culture,

Ravae Sinclair

yeah, version of brown, okay, and then the OB is white,

Shira Lawrence

okay, white male, older, white, male, okay. Everybody else, pretty much black, including all the police, staff, everything.

Ravae Sinclair

Okay with the forceps. Shame, for Shame, shame,

Denise Bolds

shame, shame. I hope it's your I hope it's their mother, their sister, their their cousin, their friend has has to endure that and see if you think it's funny, it's

Ravae Sinclair

insane, it's okay. Okay, so we sat

Jet'aime McKinney

outside those doors for some time. I think

Denise Bolds

nurses with these videos to talk about that, right?

Jet'aime McKinney

Yeah, I think that recording, sure of that block of time is like 10 minutes before once we got put out to him coming out, talking to us. Okay? So we were just sitting there, yeah. We were just

Shira Lawrence

sitting waiting because we're trying to get some resolution. And then, of course, the city then, of course, the city, the county cops arrive, and they're like, you gotta go out the door. You gotta go. And so we're kind of just like, he just said we could everything's okay, and he confirmed that it was her. Now, what is the reason we're being removed? Help us? You've been so they're like, several times, yeah. And so they're like, We don't know. We've been called. All we know is, ma'am, you got to go, and you can't return back to the building. And I said, Is this the whole building or labor and delivery like, because we're on the phone with lawyers who are guiding our questions that we're asking, and so are you removing us permanently or just for the night? Is it just this water? Is it the whole hospital? We need clarification. He was like, I don't know about all that, but this is a white guy right here. He's sweet as he. Can be though, I don't know about all that, man, but what I do know is you gotta get up out of here. And so we're like, okay, he explained

Jet'aime McKinney

that it was private property. The hospital is private property. And if they are asking us to leave, and we do not leave on private property, then we can be arrested. And again, we

Shira Lawrence

have to think ahead two of us, if we are both arrested, that leaves the child with the Father, and then that literally means, if they could let him back now, that possibility is excluded, because they're going to revisit policy, so we need him to be able to come back in there. So that means we cannot get arrested, and we didn't want

Jet'aime McKinney

to be arrested, like let's get very clear

Denise Bolds

about that. We're not here to be arrested by foolish endeavors and people abusing power and

Jet'aime McKinney

privilege. Exactly right? You wanted

Ravae Sinclair

to have a baby, so this also means so this was an opportunity, based off of what he said was for the medical staff to say it's okay for them to stay Mm, hmm. We're we know you were called. We we were at an impasse earlier, but since you were called, we have worked it out. So nobody said that.

Jet'aime McKinney

Nobody's saying that. We're asking. There was a point where sheer is like, hey, we talked to the doctor, like he said, like it came from her. It's not coming from us. We're not bullying her into this decision. And you can hear the public safety officer say, I'm done, I'm done, I'm done. Go downstairs. I'm done. And so there wasn't even, not only did they not give that information, like, it wasn't even like, Hey, let's go have a conversation with the doctor. Let's go. Like, none of that. It was just like, the whole situation is done. They house supervisor came and we asked if we can at least go tell her by. They told us, No, we were not allowed in the room at all to go tell her by, I still had some things in the room, they got a nurse to go gather my belongings, they told and brought it back out to me, the nurse house supervisor tried to be saying, like, do y'all have a phone? And we were like, yeah. They were like, well, you can be phone support for her. They did try to get us to sign a paper visitor behavior policy that we declined to sign

Denise Bolds

the doula behavior out of

Ravae Sinclair

control when the one throwing the tantrum, you weren't the one slamming phone,

Denise Bolds

turning off your camera, making threats

Jet'aime McKinney

Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Okay, so that made them even more upset, because we wouldn't sign it, that we wouldn't sign it, we took a picture of it, did not sign it, but she then they tried to tell her, she can't even FaceTime us. She can only talk to us on the phone as if you're just making up laws of you know, of how we can now support her.

Ravae Sinclair

You said you could support virtually, and then they decline her correct total leadership is, got it?

Denise Bolds

That's how inconsistent this leadership is. Yeah,

Ravae Sinclair

so you all walk out with the police officers?

Jet'aime McKinney

Yes, I have a choice.

Shira Lawrence

And we got escorted on the elevator with the whole squad, the county officers, the the

Jet'aime McKinney

public safety officers, everybody.

Shira Lawrence

So we, and we were asking, like, we have to get on the elevator with them, because then again, here comes the fear, like there's this entourage, and then two little at 135, most bodies on the elevator with them. And it's like My heart pounded the whole time. They have to escort us out of the building.

Jet'aime McKinney

Cuz we tried not to get on the elevator with them at first, because we were scared, and then they were scared, and then they were just like,

Denise Bolds

No, you have to unnecessary, excessiveness. I'm totally unnecessary.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, wow. So y'all get on together with officers surrounding you elevator and you're thinking, what?

Shira Lawrence

I can't think. I'm afraid. I'm thinking, well, the only thing I was thinking was, Lord, if something happens to us, who's gonna tell the story? Because the same way the whole crew up there just watched, we've seen it happen, even with the what happened to the baby at the other hospital, the whole team had to be on one accord

Denise Bolds

how you both were treated. Everyone, all those nurses at that desk, all the doctors, every security, everybody saw how you both are

Ravae Sinclair

treated, yeah, but nobody's going to tell the story from your point of view, because they they need to. They have a job they want to get they have mortgages

Jet'aime McKinney

to work tomorrow.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, they're invested in showing up. And they need these people to be cool so that they can pay their rent or their mortgages, right? So they're never going to tell the story from your point of view, plus, they don't have

Jet'aime McKinney

the perspective. But yeah, and then I think we were thinking, I remember at one point, I think we asked ourselves, does she even have her phone? Like, how are we going to communicate? Because we're not just thinking about ourselves either. Like, we haven't seen her at all since they put us out the room, right? We knew an epidural, so we were thankful for that. But we were like, does she have her phone? Can we call her? You know, like, we need to call her and check on her when we get to the car. But her phone wasn't, like, on her in the moment, because she was laboring, right? So we're just thinking, like, how can we

Denise Bolds

what does say when you all walked out to the to the

Shira Lawrence

waiting area? Yeah, that's what I was about to add. So as you're saying. As we're walking out. I don't remember if we woke him up or he got up or but we exchanged with him. So we took the child out of his arm, we grabbed the child as we were leaving, and we kind of gave him some notes, like, Hey, listen, this is what's going on. It's what you're walking into, you know, call us XYZ. And he's, he's still kind of very lethargic, because he's like, okay, you know, like, you know, just kind of like, what? But also, we look at a black male and a whole lot of police, he like, I'm gonna go on ahead, move stage left quickly. Let's skip this over with and so there wasn't a lot of conversation. I know that wasn't much. Yeah, I do want to add that I remember that said a support person that was home with the other child. I think she was in that person was in his ear and and she was saying, like, you need to get in there. You need to tell them to do what's safe for this baby. Let's also state still nothing's going on to where there's any question about baby or mom, safety. No, D sales, no, nothing. Everything is cool. There's nothing happening. But when we got to our vehicle, Jatin notices that she has a series of text messages from that additional support person making threats like, Imma sue you y'all at a reason like, Oh, what are you even talking about? So it is not surprising to us when we see some of the narratives that have gotten stirred up on social media. We have a strong inclination of the root of those, but I hope that what we shared so far gives you, like, a better lens and knowing and being able to trust that our story is 100%

Jet'aime McKinney

truthful also, yeah, we want to put ourselves out there. We and we didn't go on the news for fame and or anything like that. Honestly, we didn't ask for this either to get to this point, but we do find it as an opportunity to the bigger picture right about autonomy and women's choices and rights and birth and so many other things. But yeah, hopefully this brought clarity this conversation, and a lot of clarity, a lot of clarity.

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, so as you guys get to the car, you are now like, becoming aware of, like, messages on your phone. So dad goes up to be with partner birthing person, and this is this support person, or this additional family member is still in the waiting room because they didn't let that person up, never came to the

Denise Bolds

hospital with the baby, right?

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, she's just in the air. Okay, so now you all are do what do y'all sit together? Do y'all look at each other and debrief like, do y'all cry?

Jet'aime McKinney

Do you what? We went to the same we went to the same car. We sat in the car together and we, I think we called a very we were gotten off the phone with our the attorneys, and called a very close friend, and was like, we were in disbelief. We were upset. We were like, I don't know. I think we sat there for a long time, just like we did. We sat in we sat we were in the parking garage, in our car for at least an hour, an hour after everything happened,

Shira Lawrence

and I was so numb. I remember my car was just across from hers. But I said, I can't drive. I can't think we have to stay together. Because I was thinking I could go back to the first hotel room right across the street, because it's ours. I could go there and go to sleep, but I couldn't my body, my mind, everything was just stuck. And so I was like, can we just stay together? Can you bring me back to my car tomorrow? I I need to just be near someone. I need to feel a little bit

Jet'aime McKinney

that's what it felt like, yeah, um, and it was really heavy. It was really heavy, but I don't know, um, then we were concerned about her, and to be honest, I felt like, if we just sat there, we were as close as we could be to her, yeah,

Denise Bolds

with the baby inside,

Jet'aime McKinney

yeah, I was just like, we might be in the parking garage, but we're still here, like we haven't let we we've been put out as as far as they can, but we haven't left. Yeah, we haven't left. Yeah, we have out of our own will and accord, like we're still here, and she

Shira Lawrence

started to text us like normal. So we knew she was relieved, but we had concern, I think, with everything going on, we know about oxytocin, and we know that with everything happening, those contractions probably jumped out the front window. And so she was texting us like normal, you know, just kind of getting like, what's happening.

Jet'aime McKinney

There was a point girl in that time, yeah, yeah, there was a

Shira Lawrence

t we know baby was born about: 11:21

Jet'aime McKinney

Well, yeah, it was the same day, but it was early in the week,

Shira Lawrence

am to about: 1121

Ravae Sinclair

And what I also hear, so 11 O'clock there was a shift change, and so probably a new doctor

Denise Bolds

on no Ravae, at 11 o'clock in the morning, the admins were back on on site. Oh yeah, okay, that big. The day people are there and they got this baby out

Ravae Sinclair

well, but also, 7am shift change happened. So after the removal, there's a new doc, probably on more conversation. And I think one of the things that was put out was that she came in with, you know, puss in her vagina, like we're crazy, some kind of infection. But let's just understand, given this timeline, nobody, nobody would let her sit exactly have an infection for all of these hours, even for the time that you all were there. So we wanted they're taking

Denise Bolds

vitals. They could have seen if she was, you know, getting a febrile

Speaker 3

but they're watching her blood counts too. They're checking so for those people who watch, who are watching that don't know, infection shows up with, like, temperature changes, or blood cells

Jet'aime McKinney

baby being tacky, or something,

Speaker 3

yeah, zero of those things happened until when it was when this, like, within an hour or two of the Cesarean call. So that's well after us, and there was no signs of infection at all. So no, if

Jet'aime McKinney

there wasn't no prolonged rupture that led to that, there was no it doesn't even make sense. And so some of this,

Ravae Sinclair

some of the commentaries, like you all, were impeding medical like, vital medical procedures to happen, and so that's why you all had to be removed. So we're I just want to clear that up. I also want to clear up the misnomer that she was alone. Her partner joined her after you all left. Were removed. He was present. He was present and available to her for that emotional, emotional support. So you all didn't create a scenario where she was

Jet'aime McKinney

where she was able to birth alone, yeah,

Denise Bolds

but the partner made sure he could recover from getting them in from a maternal desert, driving two hours after working 15 hours getting them into you know, this poor guy was probably exhausted without

Ravae Sinclair

community Support, other than no support at

Denise Bolds

all, the sibling doula showed up late. She showed up, but she showed up very late. It was a question. They may not have had even had that at all. So this was very hard for this couple, very hard. So together,

Ravae Sinclair

you all were at your house, at your space to Tim, and you all got information that this, the birth happened, and the baby and mom were doing well. They were recovering. Well, okay, so besides that, everybody's well, how, what do you know about their postpartum care, like their hurt, their experience, and you know, because they are still in this institution on the other side of this birth. And did they did they discharge right away? Did they stay? It's a C section, so I imagine they were there for two days or so. What do you know that you can share about their experience on the postpartum side? And where did you all visit them on the postpartum side?

Speaker 3

What we know. Is what we know is that we weren't clear on what when we could return, and we all were also very afraid to return to the space, sure, and so unfortunately, we were not there for any of the postpartum care. And due to how sticky things have become with the internet, we're not even going to try to fill in gaps, because we don't want any parts of that. What we know is that we served her, and we served her well, and she was grateful and thankful via text message the next day, she stated how proud she was of her body, she stated how proud she was of her team, and she was content that,

Shira Lawrence

you know, with just that, after that, we know that the additional people who weren't there that were a part of her support system have created a barrier now, until so so we don't have that communication with her, and we. Desperately have sought after it, but we know when to take our hands off of it. We've We've extended ourselves and we, I mean, it is so unfortunate, because we know what it's like to be postpartum, minus all these challenges. We cannot imagine the mental space to have it with it, but, but if there is anything that has been sown into her to make her believe that it's different than what she initially perceived. We can't be the cure anymore. We can't provide the support. And so we're there. That's where we are. And we even said, Go ahead, you Tim, I was

Jet'aime McKinney

gonna say we did have communication for the first couple of days, for about a week, about a week, about a week postpartum, because we did not release the video until she and baby were released from a hospital to ensure that they did not have any retaliatory actions.

Denise Bolds

Yeah, and it started with patient determination, and it ended with patient determination, the fact that you know she did reach out, she did give you an update. Now she's at home with her family. When she's ready to reach out to the both of you, she will, but this all just goes to show you all the things that a doula does to get that family to hospital, to get that family into into care. And a lot of this is taken for granted. And what Ravae And I talk about offline, one of the things that she says very often is how doulas are so misutilized, totally, totally misutilized. And the concept this wasn't a domestic violence situation where these clinicians said, well, let's hear it in her voice. What are you talking about? This was, this wasn't a situation of trafficking or sexual abuse or DV or anything like that. So what are you talking about? This woman has been alert. She's been communicative the entire time on what she wanted, and yet, still they were trying to extract you both to say, Oh, well, let's get it in her voice. She's been speaking the whole time

Jet'aime McKinney

the entire Exactly.

Ravae Sinclair

Yeah, so you all, you all waited to share this publicly. So this is a delay. We all were getting it late at the end of last week, but mom had already been the family already been back home two hours and some change back home, and you knew everybody was well, you had had some communication with the family at that point. What were you all doing during that week, of like, just holding space? Did you receive any like, legal guidance? Were you talking amongst one another? Were you grieving like, what? What was, what? What was that week when nobody knew

Denise Bolds

the world, and did doula community come forward and support you both? Well, this is before anybody

Ravae Sinclair

Okay, before anybody knew, just in this week of quiet, okay, we're still holding space for the family. You're still connecting with her. What are you all experiencing? Did you get legal? How did you know to release like, Well, tell me what was this decision between the two of you? It we

Speaker 3

always knew that the situation needed to go public. Somehow we knew that it wasn't okay for them to go away from this situation and not understand the weight of what they did that night. We didn't know exactly what that looked like. We did a lot of praying and fasting that we did that before the birth, during the birth, after the birth, and so that's where we started. Like whatever we do, it cannot be unto any other thing. It can't be out of our anger or all the things that has to feel grounded and in alignment with the Lord's will, because that's who, that's our identity, and so that that shine through again. And so we had to wait. We knew it couldn't be a knee jerk reaction, we knew it couldn't be half hearted. We knew it had to be well thought out. And so when the decision was finally made to create the video, it was we felt like it was an appropriate time and it was an appropriate way.

Jet'aime McKinney

Yeah, that yeah and that week was heavy, but also we had life and births. I had two or three more births.

Speaker 3

I trained doulas. We taught class. Like, a lot happened, yeah, during that,

Denise Bolds

absolutely, absolutely.

Jet'aime McKinney

So to be honest, for me, I think that while it was heavy, and while we were trying to piece together what we would share, and if it was going to be audio or because there's a lot of, like, different pieces of this and how we were going to share it. I don't think it became as heavy and hit me as much until I like, I don't know, I feel like we had to also go back to regular life. And we were also had a space reserve, because we were still talking to mama at that point and having really good communication with her during that week. And we were like, trying to hold space there for her, but there were also so many other things that were happening that we kind of like had to go back to life while also carrying a piece of it and I and then when it came out, we never anticipate. We figured it would like make some noise. And that's I remember saying that at. Eat my when I left, like we are not going to be silent. We're going to make some noise, you know? And then when it happened, I think that's when I didn't have a choice but to confront all of the emotions and what we had reserved and put in kind of like a little pocket on the side. Had to come forward. So, yeah, yeah.

Ravae Sinclair

So what has that been like? So because Shira told us, like she's the one who's not reading the comments, and then you're reading them. So how, how? How are you absorbing it? Because Denise and I tried to watch some of this, these, these social media commentaries for people who were not connected to this birth at all, not in the room, not on staff, nothing, and I could barely read the comments like the net, the negativity towards doulas, like I was, like, people hated us, like people just, I didn't, I didn't realize any of that. Like, I think I'm, you know, I've been doing this for 25 years. I don't do my work publicly, you know, like, I don't post my clients or anything. So I don't, I'm a little bit disconnected from the level of nastiness that people jump to when they think about a doula. So I'm, I'm I'm shocked. I had to stop reading the comments so I can imagine if I if it was, what's it like for the two of you? So I would love to hear that a little bit, mostly because I want doulas understand you are going to have feelings if you find yourself in any remotely close to this kind of situation, that there, that there's a fallout to this. There's a trauma, secondary trauma, but also like anger and frustration. So part of why we're talking to you is because we want you to be able to share. So I'm just wondering, what is this experience like now post public, but

Denise Bolds

I also just want to add to Ravae, these two women are whether you can see their demeanor has changed greatly from when we first started this call until now, right

Ravae Sinclair

taking them to the trauma again,

Denise Bolds

your bodies are different, your facial expressions are different. You're the way you're touching your hair, everything you know, everything is right there for you. And this is part of the weathering process. This is the part of what black doulas are going through supporting Black and Brown families in a hospital birth setting. Yes, this is what's happening, and it's was. It was very disheartening to see these social media posts with black nurses coming up here and calling you out of your name and making up these stories and adding conjecture and and things that didn't even occur, like they were there. They were not there. And let's

Ravae Sinclair

say this, we know that what they say is about them. It's a reflection of them. It's about it is absolutely not about you all. What?

Denise Bolds

Not at all, not at all. Not at all. I said to share at the beginning of the call is that I don't think either one of you woke up that day and said, Hey, I want to really fuck up somebody's birth today. I want to do this. I want to make a ruckus. I want to make this a really catastrophic event for these two people. That's wanted to do that's

Ravae Sinclair

not what you desire, but that's what is possible, and that's why we're having this conversation, but also giving you this space to have it, to tell the story from start to finish thoroughly is so that you don't have to say it again.

Jet'aime McKinney

I'm so glad we don't.

Ravae Sinclair

Right? Well, you are not about to go on CBS and all of that. We are not have to repeat the

Jet'aime McKinney

podcast channel. Watch the podcast. Please.

Denise Bolds

Your Podcast. Take the cups from there. Talk to the we're not doing that. Talk to the

Ravae Sinclair

retelling the story is a re traumatizing which we want you to air it all out, because this is a project. Is helpful, and then you now we know the rest of the day you're going to be also processing as you move through the rest of your week, right? It's another layer, but it is healing. We're going to speak that into existence for you,

Denise Bolds

all right? I want you both to be healed. I want you both to know that you are brave and courageous and loved and viable, and you are keeping our black people on our perpetual path of of just procreation and hope that we can, we can, we can have respect and decency when we go in for clinical care. I mean, it's, it's a hard mantle to carry, what you two are carrying representing a maternal desert. I am not able to do that because I live in New York City. I have no idea what that's like, but

Ravae Sinclair

we do know what it's like to have a birth turn on a dime, and you look back, have to look back and you're like, could I have done this differently? Or could I have different? Could I have diffused it or made it a little bit better? You You do all of that in that in the retelling. That's part of the process, too.

Denise Bolds

So we all do know what it's like to be a black doula. And I just want to say to all, all three of you, you know it's really difficult here, because the doulas always uplift nurses, midwives, OBS, we're always making referrals to these entities and to these people, those professions to help out. But when, when do doulas get the referral? When? When I have no black breath, I take a picture, I upload. With the nurse, the doctor, when I'm supporting and having a great birthday, the nurse is like, you were fantastic there. That's that's as far as it goes. It doesn't go any further like that. And doulas are such an untapped resource in maternal health. We know the trends of hospitals and systems before they become a research paper. We know what doctors are doing, what we know what nurses are doing. We know what's happening with nurses. We value them, but

Ravae Sinclair

we are still there. You know, a week later, those that triage nurse went off to her life that old she

Denise Bolds

did. She finished a 12 hour shift, and she

Ravae Sinclair

went home and went on to a new additional patients, paid her bills went on. Meanwhile, you all are still holding space in the week, in the two weeks, in the three weeks, some of us hold space for a year,

Jet'aime McKinney

absolutely right. We're a year

Ravae Sinclair

later, still connecting, still wanting to see them reach that one year milestone, helping them with the blips along the way. So, so back to what I was asking is, you know, where are you now, having all of this blown up, I'm calling you, getting where else, getting this scheduled, but also seeing a commentary. What? What's, what's going on for both

Jet'aime McKinney

of you? Sorry, it's talking, yeah, I don't know all of the all of the things come and recanting this. You know, we've been in the last week, you know, sharing stories, which is like, I'm glad we're just going to send everybody, because it is heavy having to share this every

Denise Bolds

time. Very happy to keep recalling

Jet'aime McKinney

and bringing it back. But I have been reading comments and seeing the videos, and honestly, on Monday and Tuesday, our phone, both of our phones blew up a lot after that nurse came out with her video. And I'm thankful that people here in the birth community that know us know our character and the integrity that we have in this work, and they have been incredibly supportive and standing in solidarity with us, and in the comment sections, as well as you know, calling us and leaving voice notes and keeping us encouraged. And so there's a good support system. But that does not also mean that like, you don't think, like, what could I have done different, you know, and now this dynamic that is potentially coming from, you know, family members, you know. And then you you just think, like, what could I have done, different, what? And I know, like, you know, you know, you hear the stories of the doulas that they talk about, you know, like, or also, I'm like, I can take accountability if we did something wrong, right, but I know for a fact that we did nothing but love her, care for her, support, her, advocate for her. And all this idea of, like, doulas aren't advocates. Y'all shouldn't like, it's just a lot of noise. So I did have to take some time where I was just like, all right, no reading the comments, because people were like, DMing us, saying, there's a there's messages in my social media DMS like, if what this nurse is saying is true, y'all should be ashamed of yourselves. Can't believe, you know, there are very ugly comments that people don't just leave in the comment section, they send to us, you know. And that's just the territory that we're in, and that's fine, but I think that we've had to, you know, we've, we've talked to each other all. I feel like we're on the phone with one another all day long, all the time, because everybody else

Denise Bolds

understand the way you did. I'm so grateful.

Jet'aime McKinney

Yeah, nobody else understands like when I am feeling low, or like, you know, or thinking, you know, it's just been heavy to carry the trauma of what happened, but also the public, the court of public opinion, and nobody understands that but her in this moment, and then I can, like, talk to Hey girl. Like, should we have done this? Like, we can kind of just talk to one another, but yeah, it's been heavy. We've been we and it's not easy to stand in this space and to speak to the these situations. And that's fine. We built for it. That's cool, but that doesn't make it any less tough, you know?

Ravae Sinclair

So I'm like, Shira answered the question as well as, like, where she is. I know you're not reading the comments in the same way, but we Denise, and I understand this better than you know she and I had a traumatic experience public, and I said throughout, I'm so glad I had a witness. If I had to have done this on my own, I would have gone into a hole. But she was there in lockstep as things were happening all along the way that led up to the results. And she I was like, You know what I, you know, I question this, you know, I was being careful, and I know you were too, and we were being considered. We had each other as a witness. So we, we still, we don't do. As much now, but we did it for the better part of two years. Like, because we got pulled back into a little bit it was like, because the healing happens and in phases, and very helpful to have her and her, me and you are not always on the same page around and you have different emotions at different times, but use each other stick, you know, and can I know, you know, continue to work well together and communicate, because it's an important part of the healing. It's like God knew, God knew this verse needed more than one, right? Yeah, and you would need to lean, and somebody would be strong when you weren't as strong. And so know that this was a setup. The something's gone. Something more is coming out of this, not only out of the situation for people to learn, but out of you, each, individually. So greater is coming on this for sure. So Shira, I want to give you a chance to say where you are, and

Jet'aime McKinney

then, yeah, we'll wrap up. I was okay

Shira Lawrence

even with the noise, knowing that the noise was happening without knowing what the noise exactly was, I was okay until the moment that the realization sunk in that there is a disconnect between myself and the mom. That was the moment that sowed the deepest in my heart and in my spirit, because I know I know all the things that we did, and we're not keeping count, because that's not who we are, but we know that we went above and beyond the call of the job in ways. And if nobody else in the world agreed with us, if everyone talked bad about us, I felt like I needed her to know that, and I needed her to feel that. And if I'm honest, I needed her to say, forget what they're saying. I know, and when that moment didn't happen for me, that's what twisted me in a position I don't care about people but her. She mattered to me. She matters to me. And so that is what is hurting the most, and then the idea that, like today, we spoke more candidly than we've spoke on any other platform. We talked in great detail, and I'm grateful for the opportunity, but it does feel a little lighter, because we've never told the story from start to finish. We've never had a child like this. Yeah, some of these, yeah, some of these inconsistencies and inaccuracies and get someone to see our faces and hear our voices and feel our heart fill our soul in this I prayed, I worshiped before I got on this call. That's all I know to do. And and I'm thinking like I have so many things that I think, first of all, we need a vacation. Jatin, we gotta step away. Okay, my birthday happened in the middle of all of this day after the release, and it was like, birthdays are so special to me. Yeah, all I did was cry that day. I cried all day, and I couldn't even put worse while I was crying, I just felt heavy

Ravae Sinclair

the ocean. Y'all need

Shira Lawrence

to go. You do? Yeah, so, so I'm there, I'm like, and then here's the other thing, friends, we have to go into a hospital for another birth very soon. How births are coming back around? What's that going

Denise Bolds

to be like for the both of you? Well, how's that triggering, or those feelings or those thoughts or so?

Jet'aime McKinney

Here's the thing I put on a very like, let me just be real. What? How many days the next day after the release, Shira, was it? I had a family that had to go there because there was an emergent situation that same hospital after the release, and that was not their planned hospital, but there was an emergency situation, like an emergency it was the closest hospital they were never planning to birth their emergency situation. And I remember calling Shira when I asked them when they called me on the phone. I said, where are you? And they said, Piedmont, Henry.

Ravae Sinclair

Oh, man, Lord, what are you doing?

Jet'aime McKinney

I called I called Shira, and I was like, Girl, I can't not go, right, right. I've been with this family like, I cannot go and I don't even wear masks anymore, but let me I put on a whole mask that covers most of my face. I know that hat on my head, and because I happen to walk in with the mom, the original mama, that night, into the into the emergency department. Typically, they make you sign your license, your ID in. But I didn't have to do that that night because I just went up with her. So I'm so thankful, because I'm sure they could have when I went there this next time I had to do my ID before whatever, I was like, Lord please. Like, don't let them have me flagged or. Anything like that.

Ravae Sinclair

But I got through society, oh

Jet'aime McKinney

my gosh. I was, I told, I remember the mask covered like everything, but my eyes this big mess, and a hat on. And I went upstairs, and I remember I was, was I on the phone with you? Shira, I think I was so scared, and I didn't want anybody to recognize me. And I just went in the room, like they told me what room they was in. And I went to that room, and I just stayed in there until I remember,

Speaker 3

when you were leaving, she she walked right by

Jet'aime McKinney

that doctor. Yes, I saw the doctor.

Shira Lawrence

I see him. I see him. I see my was like, bro,

Jet'aime McKinney

my girl, he's right here, he's right here. He's right here. The doctor. Yep, he was at the house.

Denise Bolds

Well, yeah, it's just another day. For him, he's back at work. Yeah, you you are carrying the trauma. But for him, it's just another day.

Shira Lawrence

I hadn't even, even after that situation, we kind of were still, you know how when something first has you're like, still in the adrenaline of it. So in that situation, it didn't hit me, but Tim and I were talking the other day, and she said, we got it. How do you feel? We got to go back into hospital soon. And then something clicked in me, oh, my God, I have to go to hospitals.

Jet'aime McKinney

It's not just Pete, my Henry. My fear is like, Oh, I'm gonna walk into another hospital that I've built. Like, I've been in metro Atlanta doing birth for a long time. I have great relationships with nurses and providers and things. But my now I'm like, am I gonna walk in and be like, oh god, there's your Tim. You know, like it's my and not just I can handle me being treated differently, like I'll handle that. But are they going to treat my families differently exactly because it's my face showing up and you have your opinion on what you think happened, right?

Denise Bolds

Yes, inaccurate, preconceived, totally out of pocket. Notions about me

Jet'aime McKinney

that you are right, yeah, and what you're

Ravae Sinclair

describing is retaliation, right? Absolutely. This is the vulnerable place that we're put in, our businesses, our reputation that we built we worked at, and especially because you took the social media, it's like she's that doula, like, is the phone going to stop ringing? And it's high stakes for us. Meanwhile, these people went right back to their jobs,

Denise Bolds

like nothing happened, like nothing acted like nothing acted like everything that

Ravae Sinclair

happened is okay. Here's what we know. You all are Christians. You know Vengeance is Mine, saith the LORD. Even always work it together for your good. Absolutely this will nobody got away with anything.

Denise Bolds

No weapon formed against you shall prosper.

Ravae Sinclair

It might look like you walk past and he's right at a birth and just another. It might seem like he got away with he didn't get away with anything. No, you did not. The lessons, the whoopings, the consequences will come for every single one of them, because we do from our energy, including you all so chira, you know you're like, I What really, what it hit you was when there was a little bit of a break in the communication with the family. She knows she knows she knows. She knows. They all know. They all they all know. So you move forward knowing most the work that we do is not actually for man. We do to the Lord Amen, yeah, so you already know you did what you knew to do and the way that you were no told to do it because you were being there was obedience and a lot of this, and you were really working this thing through. And so, you know, well done obedience

Denise Bolds

and humility for the well done you are both humble servants. That's all you would put on human being. You did that. But no, the Lord will make sure that you get to see his the witness's vengeance. The Lord has prepared your table for you with your enemies, to watch your ascension and your growth. Do not be discouraged about what you're doing here. This was hard, but our Lord is harder, so do not be discouraged. But you do have to take care of one another, and I'm glad you're there for one another. You do have to take care and process all of this. This was hard, and while you didn't see it, you know, the Lord sees it, yeah. And now you have us, and we saw Tuesday, we want to get the story. And it's because this doesn't make any sense. 44 days ruptured with Puss in her, you that doesn't make any sense. Get the real story. So I

Ravae Sinclair

said to Denise, I was like, I'm just gonna mess. I'm gonna I'm gonna find them. She did, she did,

Denise Bolds

she did. We were doing our girlfriends. We hung up and five minutes

Ravae Sinclair

late, she goes friends. So, you know, it went to the request. I looked up Shira. Didn't catch a I didn't get a social media link for her name, but I got your business, and I think I like try to offend it. And then I looked up to Tim, and then I friended her, and I sent the and I said, Oh, I said to Denise, I'm not going to send a message. I'm sending an audio note, because anybody who knows me, I love a good

Denise Bolds

audio. I love you

Ravae Sinclair

to hear. I wasn't just the installation. I wanted you to hear that it was like, we're concerned, like, what happened? Something happened here, and we have a platform. And here's who we are. We're legit. We have a platform where you may be able to speak long form and get it all out. And so I'm we're grateful that you are allowing us to do what God has told us to do, which is to speak to the birth worker community through our podcast,

Speaker 2

and absolutely, yeah,

Ravae Sinclair

and tell the story. So Okay, before we close, before I do the closing, is there anything that you like? You want to take away, you really want to say that we didn't actually cover and you really want to get it out. We want to give you both space to do that.

Denise Bolds

I think I got it out. Okay, good. I'm glad. I'm so glad.

Shira Lawrence

Okay, got it out. Also, we've been putting off. We have a one of those news stations we had at one o'clock. I pushed him to one window. Yes, I know we had

Jet'aime McKinney

to wrap this up. I was like, Oh my God, they're gonna have to release this in two parts or something. We didn't talk forever.

Ravae Sinclair

We will do. We will do two parts, and we're going to dive right into editing so we can all of this. Tim, is there anything you want to say, or did you get it all

Jet'aime McKinney

out as well? Ah, I mean, there's always going to be things that you could say, but I think that we I

Shira Lawrence

do want to just acknowledge you guys. Oh, sorry. I just want to say that we prayed for platforms where people could do justice to our story. We didn't want to just sit and talk to anybody that was nosy and wanted to hear and I think that from the moment I came onto this call, I felt of the presence of the Lord, and I felt the authenticity, and I didn't feel like we were here to be criticized, but I felt your arms wrapped around us, and so we thank you because you didn't have to reach out to us. You could have just be chosen to just not and so we don't take it lightly that you took this step of faith too, and we're praying for y'all too, because this is the work we all do. This felt

Jet'aime McKinney

very safe. I think that's why we were able to share like we were, because it felt safe and it felt like you guys really heard us and weren't just you know, it felt good. So thank you guys for allowing us to come here and share with you all and creating this safe space for us to bring light to the Spirit. You both

Denise Bolds

are truly, you know, definitely a jewel in the crown of the Lord so you are revered, you are treasured, you are respected, you are loved, you are protected. And I'm so grateful that you came on and trusted Ravae and I today just really powerful day.

Ravae Sinclair

ke, a couple births away from: 1000

Shira Lawrence

Thanks. Y'all.